5 ms·

Is the ability to “forgive oneself” sustainable? Does the initial “help” from MDMA empower the person to learn to permanently see themselves and their experienc

by zakum1 8y ago

Is the ability to “forgive oneself” sustainable? Does the initial “help” from MDMA empower the person to learn to permanently see themselves and their experiences in a new way? As someone who believes that developing ourselves comes from the traditional hard work of life and spiritual development (or whatever you may call it) with no quick fixes, I find the prospect surprisingly compelling.

taurath 8y ago
You can reinforce headspaces and practice those abilities like any other habit. The best way I've heard MDMA therapy being described is this - you have a large group of extremely painful neurons/memories, and going there is shocking and horrific to the point that you begin to grow a big moat of fearful neurons/emotions next to anything that connects with them. The point of therapy in general is to 1. Break down that fear moat (which frequently grows to be more painful than the underlying issue), and 2. Start drawing those painful neurons and memories out, but in as positive and understanding an environment as possible. At that point the memories/neurons get re-stored, still painful but with the added context of the environment they were last accessed. MDMA takes step 2 and adds the most positive neurological/chemical setting possible for you to pull those painful neurons and memories out, and puts them in what can be described as a comforting blanket. It can absolutely quicken the process and help you eventually neutralize the traumatic and painful bundle of memories. Calling it a quick fix is such a misnomer - it is incredibly hard work to heal one's self from the inside, no matter the external helpers.
- psergeant 8y ago
  Propanalol, which is dramatically less illegal, is meant to help with this too, and there are studies showing it too; my understanding (from using it for anxiety) is it basically blocks you from being able to feel stress. This allows you to more easily process painful memories.
  - taurath 8y ago
    It blocks the physical manifestations of stress - increased heartrate, sweating, etc that can form a feedback loop, and downregulates a bit of thyroid hormone production. How does one know they're stressed? The feeling of those symptoms. I imagine it could help, and probably be better than therapy alone, but lessoning of the negative feelings around painful memories can be treated with opiates too (which are far more addictive than MDMA, despite MDMA being far more euphoric). The problem is PTSD, anxiety disorders and personality disorders are incredibly intractable with the tools we have - if a therapeutic session could have 10x efficacy and safely get someone to a healthier state in 1 year rather than 10, it should absolutely be looked into.
mandelbrotwurst 8y ago
I would answer both of those questions with "sometimes" or "maybe". Psychedelic experience is often a trigger that allows the one going through it to quickly bypass some (but not all!) obstacles on their Path. e.g. a single MDMA experience might allow the person going through it to be more forgiving (albeit temporarily!) than they would otherwise have been able to, seeing the value of such a perspective and increasing the likelihood that they will engage in the on-going work that you describe. As with most experiences, its impact (and duration of) exist on a spectrum.
- simonsaidit 8y ago
  I’ve seen it first hand but short lived sadly.
1000units 8y ago
This is the difficult truth. But outright it's like telling a severely depressed 120 lb man who can barely get out of bed he needs to start weightlifting, so we get these threads and these ideas. Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent human, and yet it's incredibly hard to achieve in our current culture. We're a nation of drugged out, traumatized zombies starving for answers, and the loudest voices belong to snakes and idiots. It's an absolute disaster. The first baby step of a solution is allowing and encouraging people to discover and to speak plainly about what is Good, what is Beauty, what are our obligations to ourselves and others, and why. But everyone's brains are fried. They've simply accepted the ambient dull-minded morality seeped into our cultural fabric by a host of unmoral forces (and a few immoral), and the process of spiritual development for many has become a weakly cathartic but useless raging at the failure of their community to succeed within this framework. Then they're told: when this exhausts you, reach for the pill bottle. It's incredibly sad.
- dqpb 8y ago
  > Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent human Tell that to someone who is starving. Hierarchy of needs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
  - 1000units 8y ago
    Explain hunger strikes.
    - dqpb 8y ago
      Hunger strikes are a form of protest to affect social or political change. Social and political issues are often slow, endemic, and creeping. Cleverly, hunger strikes transform these issues into something that is visual, easily empathized with, and quickly escalating. Indeed, this illustrates quite well that physiological needs are the most important needs - if they were't, then they couldn't serve as a tool to escalate the stakes of the protest. If spiritual needs were more important, you would have spirit strikes instead of hunger strikes.
wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>As someone who believes that developing ourselves comes from the traditional hard work of life and spiritual development (or whatever you may call it) with no quick fixes, I find the prospect surprisingly compelling. You may find the Good Friday experiment to be of interest: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment

by zakum1 8y ago

taurath 8y ago

You can reinforce headspaces and practice those abilities like any other habit. The best way I've heard MDMA therapy being described is this - you have a large group of extremely painful neurons/memories, and going there is shocking and horrific to the point that you begin to grow a big moat of fearful neurons/emotions next to anything that connects with them. The point of therapy in general is to 1. Break down that fear moat (which frequently grows to be more painful than the underlying issue), and 2. Start drawing those painful neurons and memories out, but in as positive and understanding an environment as possible. At that point the memories/neurons get re-stored, still painful but with the added context of the environment they were last accessed. MDMA takes step 2 and adds the most positive neurological/chemical setting possible for you to pull those painful neurons and memories out, and puts them in what can be described as a comforting blanket. It can absolutely quicken the process and help you eventually neutralize the traumatic and painful bundle of memories. Calling it a quick fix is such a misnomer - it is incredibly hard work to heal one's self from the inside, no matter the external helpers.

psergeant 8y ago
Propanalol, which is dramatically less illegal, is meant to help with this too, and there are studies showing it too; my understanding (from using it for anxiety) is it basically blocks you from being able to feel stress. This allows you to more easily process painful memories.
- taurath 8y ago
  It blocks the physical manifestations of stress - increased heartrate, sweating, etc that can form a feedback loop, and downregulates a bit of thyroid hormone production. How does one know they're stressed? The feeling of those symptoms. I imagine it could help, and probably be better than therapy alone, but lessoning of the negative feelings around painful memories can be treated with opiates too (which are far more addictive than MDMA, despite MDMA being far more euphoric). The problem is PTSD, anxiety disorders and personality disorders are incredibly intractable with the tools we have - if a therapeutic session could have 10x efficacy and safely get someone to a healthier state in 1 year rather than 10, it should absolutely be looked into.

mandelbrotwurst 8y ago

I would answer both of those questions with "sometimes" or "maybe". Psychedelic experience is often a trigger that allows the one going through it to quickly bypass some (but not all!) obstacles on their Path. e.g. a single MDMA experience might allow the person going through it to be more forgiving (albeit temporarily!) than they would otherwise have been able to, seeing the value of such a perspective and increasing the likelihood that they will engage in the on-going work that you describe. As with most experiences, its impact (and duration of) exist on a spectrum.

simonsaidit 8y ago
I’ve seen it first hand but short lived sadly.

1000units 8y ago

This is the difficult truth. But outright it's like telling a severely depressed 120 lb man who can barely get out of bed he needs to start weightlifting, so we get these threads and these ideas. Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent human, and yet it's incredibly hard to achieve in our current culture. We're a nation of drugged out, traumatized zombies starving for answers, and the loudest voices belong to snakes and idiots. It's an absolute disaster. The first baby step of a solution is allowing and encouraging people to discover and to speak plainly about what is Good, what is Beauty, what are our obligations to ourselves and others, and why. But everyone's brains are fried. They've simply accepted the ambient dull-minded morality seeped into our cultural fabric by a host of unmoral forces (and a few immoral), and the process of spiritual development for many has become a weakly cathartic but useless raging at the failure of their community to succeed within this framework. Then they're told: when this exhausts you, reach for the pill bottle. It's incredibly sad.

dqpb 8y ago
> Spiritual health is literally the most important need of any intelligent human Tell that to someone who is starving. Hierarchy of needs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
- 1000units 8y ago
  Explain hunger strikes.
  - dqpb 8y ago
    Hunger strikes are a form of protest to affect social or political change. Social and political issues are often slow, endemic, and creeping. Cleverly, hunger strikes transform these issues into something that is visual, easily empathized with, and quickly escalating. Indeed, this illustrates quite well that physiological needs are the most important needs - if they were't, then they couldn't serve as a tool to escalate the stakes of the protest. If spiritual needs were more important, you would have spirit strikes instead of hunger strikes.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago

>As someone who believes that developing ourselves comes from the traditional hard work of life and spiritual development (or whatever you may call it) with no quick fixes, I find the prospect surprisingly compelling. You may find the Good Friday experiment to be of interest: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment