4 ms·

> You would not like it one bit at the conservative places I worked at. So the commenter says that he looks forward to the next generation of developers not ex

> You would not like it one bit at the conservative places I worked at. So the commenter says that he looks forward to the next generation of developers not experiencing the hate that he has experienced. You say, he’d be unhappy at conservative places, presumably because he’d still experience that hate. So then why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? His goal—hell, it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged.

Const-me 8y ago
> why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? Because he doesn’t understand that these places openly hostile towards gays are likely formed by white heterosexual Christian conservatives defending their identity and pushing for politics at workplace. > it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged You can’t stamp out people. You forcibly convert that one place to your faith, people will likely change jobs or move to other states.
- ionised 8y ago
  What are these white heterosexual Christians defending their identity against?
  - Const-me 8y ago
    Against treats to that identity. Through most of the history, the threats were imaginary, and it was conservative majority who oppressed other people. Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real, see e.g. https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsuit https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsu... I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. The right way is promoting tolerance (the good one i.e. civilized behavior towards people despite different positions, not the bad one that says everyone must express the only true position), and most importantly following the laws. Democracy + judicial system worked OK for centuries. IMO it’s the only working mechanism invented so far how a society can function despite different people have different identities and beliefs.
    - mike10010100 8y ago
      > Against treats to that identity. What, precisely, about other minorities existing threatens that identity? You keep repeating this claim of threats, but haven't been able to articulate any. > I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers based solely on their biology. Hence, why he was fired. The only thing that cannot be tolerated in a tolerant society is intolerance itself.
      - Const-me 8y ago
        > haven't been able to articulate any. See the link in the previous comment. Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Also because the subject was about work conditions, the firing was illegal in California jurisdiction. > describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers Apparently, you have not read that memo. He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that. And IMO he never meant that either.
        mike10010100 8y ago
        > See the link in the previous comment. That really doesn't describe a threat to the "white heterosexual Christian" identity. In fact, you're free to be a white heterosexual Christian at Google or anywhere else for that matter. > Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Again, the viewpoint on women and minorities was an intolerant one. Please study the Paradox of Tolerance. > He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that. You're right, he made a much more broad statement about the gender gap in the tech industry. Although there is this section: > Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing). >○ These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics. He's regurgitating the idea that biology, rather than society, is what is holding women back in the tech industry. This is an intolerant viewpoint, as it suggests that there is something inherent about being female that makes them inferior at participating in the tech industry.
ams6110 8y ago
I don't think the presumption is that he would still be experiencing the hate. But neither might his lifestyle be celebrated at work. And why should it be?
- camel_Snake 8y ago
  I don't think he's looking to be celebrated, just accepted and treated fairly.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
If you hate conservatives and want to stamp them out, then by your own logic they’d be completely justified in preemptively stamping you out before you get the chance to do it to them.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Veelox 8y ago
>So then why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? His goal—hell, it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged. How do you think a person who wore a MAGA hat to Google or Facebook would be treated? What about someone who advocates that people who entered the country without permission should be charged with a crime? I think the point being made is that be careful how the minority is treated because one day you might be in the minority. The best way to do that is to keep out politics out of work.

Const-me 8y ago

> why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? Because he doesn’t understand that these places openly hostile towards gays are likely formed by white heterosexual Christian conservatives defending their identity and pushing for politics at workplace. > it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged You can’t stamp out people. You forcibly convert that one place to your faith, people will likely change jobs or move to other states.

ionised 8y ago
What are these white heterosexual Christians defending their identity against?
- Const-me 8y ago
  Against treats to that identity. Through most of the history, the threats were imaginary, and it was conservative majority who oppressed other people. Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real, see e.g. https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsuit https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsu... I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. The right way is promoting tolerance (the good one i.e. civilized behavior towards people despite different positions, not the bad one that says everyone must express the only true position), and most importantly following the laws. Democracy + judicial system worked OK for centuries. IMO it’s the only working mechanism invented so far how a society can function despite different people have different identities and beliefs.
  - mike10010100 8y ago
    > Against treats to that identity. What, precisely, about other minorities existing threatens that identity? You keep repeating this claim of threats, but haven't been able to articulate any. > I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers based solely on their biology. Hence, why he was fired. The only thing that cannot be tolerated in a tolerant society is intolerance itself.
    - Const-me 8y ago
      > haven't been able to articulate any. See the link in the previous comment. Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Also because the subject was about work conditions, the firing was illegal in California jurisdiction. > describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers Apparently, you have not read that memo. He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that. And IMO he never meant that either.
      - mike10010100 8y ago
        > See the link in the previous comment. That really doesn't describe a threat to the "white heterosexual Christian" identity. In fact, you're free to be a white heterosexual Christian at Google or anywhere else for that matter. > Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Again, the viewpoint on women and minorities was an intolerant one. Please study the Paradox of Tolerance. > He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that. You're right, he made a much more broad statement about the gender gap in the tech industry. Although there is this section: > Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing). >○ These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics. He's regurgitating the idea that biology, rather than society, is what is holding women back in the tech industry. This is an intolerant viewpoint, as it suggests that there is something inherent about being female that makes them inferior at participating in the tech industry.

ams6110 8y ago

I don't think the presumption is that he would still be experiencing the hate. But neither might his lifestyle be celebrated at work. And why should it be?

camel_Snake 8y ago
I don't think he's looking to be celebrated, just accepted and treated fairly.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago

If you hate conservatives and want to stamp them out, then by your own logic they’d be completely justified in preemptively stamping you out before you get the chance to do it to them.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Veelox 8y ago

>So then why do you wonder why he pushes for politics in the workforce? His goal—hell, it should be all of our goal—is to stamp out places where such hate is encouraged. How do you think a person who wore a MAGA hat to Google or Facebook would be treated? What about someone who advocates that people who entered the country without permission should be charged with a crime? I think the point being made is that be careful how the minority is treated because one day you might be in the minority. The best way to do that is to keep out politics out of work.