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It should be noted that many views espoused by what Americans call 'liberals' or 'left-leaning' people are in fact the mainstream in the EU (such as issues abou

by aluren 8y ago

It should be noted that many views espoused by what Americans call 'liberals' or 'left-leaning' people are in fact the mainstream in the EU (such as issues about abortion, gun control, death penalty, healthcare, and so on) and commonly accepted by almost all parties except what we'd call 'far-right' ones. So I'm wondering: when those articles pop up calling the tech world/the Valley/company X a 'liberal monoculture' or whatever, are they implying that it is also the case for the entirety of a continent? Or is it simply that, as in Europe, a minority of people with fringe and socially unacceptable views is wishing rather loudly that their views weren't so fringe and socially unacceptable?

philwelch 8y ago
> It should be noted that many views espoused by what Americans call 'liberals' or 'left-leaning' people are in fact the mainstream in the EU (such as issues about abortion, gun control, death penalty, healthcare, and so on) and commonly accepted by almost all parties except what we'd call 'far-right' ones. That's a massive oversimplification: * Ireland only recently legalized abortion, which has been legal in the United States since 1972. The legal status of abortion in the United States is in some ways far more liberal than in many European countries, and in other ways less. * American courts have routinely protected levels of civil liberties that are beyond those recognized anywhere in the EU. * Unlike some EU countries, the United States neither has a state-established religion, nor regulates or prohibits the public exercise of religion. * The United States has stricter corporate regulations and higher corporate taxes than many EU countries. The right-wing Heritage Foundation's "Index of Economic Freedom" ranks the United States 18th, below Switzerland, Ireland, Estonia, the UK, Iceland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, and the Netherlands. According to actual American conservatives, countries following the famed "Nordic Model" are in fact, even more capitalist than the United States!
- aluren 8y ago
  >Ireland only recently legalized abortion, which has been legal in the United States since 1972. The legal status of abortion in the United States is in some ways far more liberal than in many European countries, and in other ways less. Abortion was supported by the majority of the Irish for a while. That it became legal recently is only mildly correlated with the social acceptability of the view itself, and prior to legalization many women would simply fly to England or wherever to do what they had to do. >American courts have routinely protected levels of civil liberties that are beyond those recognized anywhere in the EU. >Unlike some EU countries, the United States neither has a state-established religion, nor regulates or prohibits the public exercise of religion. >The United States has stricter corporate regulations and higher corporate taxes than many EU countries. The right-wing Heritage Foundation's "Index of Economic Freedom" ranks the United States 18th, below Switzerland, Ireland, Estonia, the UK, Iceland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, and the Netherlands. According to actual American conservatives, countries following the famed "Nordic Model" are in fact, even more capitalist than the United States! I'm not sure how that relates to my point. I never said Europe is consistently more left-leaning than America on every political issue, which would be a very silly point indeed that'd require twisting the definition of 'left-leaning' to the point of meaninglessness. I'm saying that many views considered left-leaning or liberal in America are the norm in Europe, and I'm raising the question of whether that makes Europe and its ~500M inhabitants a monoculture equivalent to that of tech companies.
- krrrh 8y ago
  I'll add a few of my favourites: * Women only achieved the federal vote in Switzerland in 1971, and the for local votes the last hold-out was forced to acquiesce by the Supreme Court only in 1991. * There is no country in Europe with abortion laws as permissive as those in the United States (or Canada, but that's it's own strange case). Portugal didn't legalize abortion until 2007, and it is only available on-demand up until the 10th week. Abortion is still illegal in Ireland (in the process of reform after last May's referendum). In Germany abortion-on-demand is only legal in the first 12 weeks, and requires mandatory counselling with a 3-day waiting period. * While no EU states practice the death penalty because it is a condition of membership, majorities in France, the Baltics, Czech Republic, and several Eastern European countries still [support it](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/55sze2/support_for_the_death_penalty_in_europe_1548_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/55sze2/support_for...), and in the UK support was up around 70% less than a decade ago. Current support for the death penalty in the US has registered as between 49 and 55% in the last few years. Not totally out of line in terms of public opinion, though there are more states that have the death penalty in the US obviously. * I was stunned to be in a German class in Berlin with students from several EU countries, most of them in their early 20s, and also be the only one present who had no problem with homosexual adoption, which was most stridently opposed by representatives of catholic countries. I was the only North American.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    In practice, many US states have arbitrary barriers to abortion that make it harder to actually get one in parts of the US than in parts of the EU, so I didn’t want to make too strong of a statement. But certainly, I don’t know of any European countries with a national or federal law regarding abortion that is as permissive as the federal statutory and case law of the United States.
sampo 8y ago
I'm European. Yes, we think abortion, gun control, no death penalty and public healthcare are normal things. But European companies, or European work colleagues, don't think that (conservative) Americans are unhireable, or that they should be fired just because they're Americans and hold American political views.
- aluren 8y ago
  That's a good point. I believe it's due to the fact that American-style conservative views are so fringe in Europe that no one takes them as a threat no matter outlandish they are. But in many European companies, signaling yourself as a supporter of the local far-right party (whether it be the AfD or the FN or the SD or whatever) can be grounds for blacklisting and ostracization. Still, the question remains: does that make Europe a monoculture?
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    I think that outlawing hate groups and proscribing their speech is an appropriate function of the state. It's an instrinsically public, political function. That's why it shouldn't be done by company management: it rightfully falls to a democratic institution that's accountable to the whole of the public.

by aluren 8y ago

philwelch 8y ago

> It should be noted that many views espoused by what Americans call 'liberals' or 'left-leaning' people are in fact the mainstream in the EU (such as issues about abortion, gun control, death penalty, healthcare, and so on) and commonly accepted by almost all parties except what we'd call 'far-right' ones. That's a massive oversimplification: * Ireland only recently legalized abortion, which has been legal in the United States since 1972. The legal status of abortion in the United States is in some ways far more liberal than in many European countries, and in other ways less. * American courts have routinely protected levels of civil liberties that are beyond those recognized anywhere in the EU. * Unlike some EU countries, the United States neither has a state-established religion, nor regulates or prohibits the public exercise of religion. * The United States has stricter corporate regulations and higher corporate taxes than many EU countries. The right-wing Heritage Foundation's "Index of Economic Freedom" ranks the United States 18th, below Switzerland, Ireland, Estonia, the UK, Iceland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, and the Netherlands. According to actual American conservatives, countries following the famed "Nordic Model" are in fact, even more capitalist than the United States!

aluren 8y ago
>Ireland only recently legalized abortion, which has been legal in the United States since 1972. The legal status of abortion in the United States is in some ways far more liberal than in many European countries, and in other ways less. Abortion was supported by the majority of the Irish for a while. That it became legal recently is only mildly correlated with the social acceptability of the view itself, and prior to legalization many women would simply fly to England or wherever to do what they had to do. >American courts have routinely protected levels of civil liberties that are beyond those recognized anywhere in the EU. >Unlike some EU countries, the United States neither has a state-established religion, nor regulates or prohibits the public exercise of religion. >The United States has stricter corporate regulations and higher corporate taxes than many EU countries. The right-wing Heritage Foundation's "Index of Economic Freedom" ranks the United States 18th, below Switzerland, Ireland, Estonia, the UK, Iceland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, and the Netherlands. According to actual American conservatives, countries following the famed "Nordic Model" are in fact, even more capitalist than the United States! I'm not sure how that relates to my point. I never said Europe is consistently more left-leaning than America on every political issue, which would be a very silly point indeed that'd require twisting the definition of 'left-leaning' to the point of meaninglessness. I'm saying that many views considered left-leaning or liberal in America are the norm in Europe, and I'm raising the question of whether that makes Europe and its ~500M inhabitants a monoculture equivalent to that of tech companies.
krrrh 8y ago
I'll add a few of my favourites: * Women only achieved the federal vote in Switzerland in 1971, and the for local votes the last hold-out was forced to acquiesce by the Supreme Court only in 1991. * There is no country in Europe with abortion laws as permissive as those in the United States (or Canada, but that's it's own strange case). Portugal didn't legalize abortion until 2007, and it is only available on-demand up until the 10th week. Abortion is still illegal in Ireland (in the process of reform after last May's referendum). In Germany abortion-on-demand is only legal in the first 12 weeks, and requires mandatory counselling with a 3-day waiting period. * While no EU states practice the death penalty because it is a condition of membership, majorities in France, the Baltics, Czech Republic, and several Eastern European countries still [support it](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/55sze2/support_for_the_death_penalty_in_europe_1548_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/55sze2/support_for...), and in the UK support was up around 70% less than a decade ago. Current support for the death penalty in the US has registered as between 49 and 55% in the last few years. Not totally out of line in terms of public opinion, though there are more states that have the death penalty in the US obviously. * I was stunned to be in a German class in Berlin with students from several EU countries, most of them in their early 20s, and also be the only one present who had no problem with homosexual adoption, which was most stridently opposed by representatives of catholic countries. I was the only North American.
- philwelch 8y ago
  In practice, many US states have arbitrary barriers to abortion that make it harder to actually get one in parts of the US than in parts of the EU, so I didn’t want to make too strong of a statement. But certainly, I don’t know of any European countries with a national or federal law regarding abortion that is as permissive as the federal statutory and case law of the United States.

sampo 8y ago

I'm European. Yes, we think abortion, gun control, no death penalty and public healthcare are normal things. But European companies, or European work colleagues, don't think that (conservative) Americans are unhireable, or that they should be fired just because they're Americans and hold American political views.

aluren 8y ago
That's a good point. I believe it's due to the fact that American-style conservative views are so fringe in Europe that no one takes them as a threat no matter outlandish they are. But in many European companies, signaling yourself as a supporter of the local far-right party (whether it be the AfD or the FN or the SD or whatever) can be grounds for blacklisting and ostracization. Still, the question remains: does that make Europe a monoculture?
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  I think that outlawing hate groups and proscribing their speech is an appropriate function of the state. It's an instrinsically public, political function. That's why it shouldn't be done by company management: it rightfully falls to a democratic institution that's accountable to the whole of the public.