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I don't think public spending on research is the ultimate determinant of a nation's technological edge. After all, it was not government research that gave us

I don't think public spending on research is the ultimate determinant of a nation's technological edge. After all, it was not government research that gave us the ability to manufacture Germany into submission. That came from people like Henry Ford. Even the airplane came from a private endeavor, while a government effort failed to get off the ground. And if you look to the decline of the last great empire, Great Britain, in came in the wake of an expansion of the public sector. New technologies developed by government funding did not save the day.

loewenskind 16y ago
>And if you look to the decline of the last great empire, Great Britain, in came in the wake of an expansion of the public sector Talk about oversimplifications that fit ones own viewpoint! A lot of things changed in the UK since they were at their peak. Correlation, Causation and all that jazz.
- _delirium 16y ago
  Also, it's not even correct: there's been a massive decline in the public sector in the UK since its peak as an empire. It was a state-centered monarchy with strong mercantilist policies, not some kind of libertarian paradise.
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    and how did it manage to become so powerful? The countries it dominated didn't quake in fear of its mercantilist policies. It was the guns. And it was the trade that their manufacturing made possible and the rule of law that made it successful entrepreneurship possible. And yes, it all eroded away. It wasn't the loss of the colonies, but the loss of the things that gave it the ability to project its power in the first place.
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      You mean they became less relevant because they became less evil?
izendejas 16y ago
Does ARPANET mean anything to you? Without ARPANET, it's quite possible we wouldn't have the massive growth that has resulted from an open internet that doesn't discriminate packets. Would you have preferred Telcos (or other "private endeavors") designing the internet protocols with proprietary standards and full control over every packet (or lack thereof if they had had their way)? Yes, entrepreneurs have redefined the internet, but both complement each other very well and without one, you can't have the other.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  And how did THE Telco get that way? Why the government gave it a monopoly. I'm not sure I would hold that up as an example of enterprise. More like the-entire-country-is-captive enterprise. If the government hadn't established AT&T as a monopoly, we would've had more innovation. Somebody would have tried to send faxes decades earlier if it were legal to plug your own equipment equipment into the wall.

loewenskind 16y ago

>And if you look to the decline of the last great empire, Great Britain, in came in the wake of an expansion of the public sector Talk about oversimplifications that fit ones own viewpoint! A lot of things changed in the UK since they were at their peak. Correlation, Causation and all that jazz.

_delirium 16y ago
Also, it's not even correct: there's been a massive decline in the public sector in the UK since its peak as an empire. It was a state-centered monarchy with strong mercantilist policies, not some kind of libertarian paradise.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  and how did it manage to become so powerful? The countries it dominated didn't quake in fear of its mercantilist policies. It was the guns. And it was the trade that their manufacturing made possible and the rule of law that made it successful entrepreneurship possible. And yes, it all eroded away. It wasn't the loss of the colonies, but the loss of the things that gave it the ability to project its power in the first place.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    You mean they became less relevant because they became less evil?

izendejas 16y ago

Does ARPANET mean anything to you? Without ARPANET, it's quite possible we wouldn't have the massive growth that has resulted from an open internet that doesn't discriminate packets. Would you have preferred Telcos (or other "private endeavors") designing the internet protocols with proprietary standards and full control over every packet (or lack thereof if they had had their way)? Yes, entrepreneurs have redefined the internet, but both complement each other very well and without one, you can't have the other.

stretchwithme 16y ago
And how did THE Telco get that way? Why the government gave it a monopoly. I'm not sure I would hold that up as an example of enterprise. More like the-entire-country-is-captive enterprise. If the government hadn't established AT&T as a monopoly, we would've had more innovation. Somebody would have tried to send faxes decades earlier if it were legal to plug your own equipment equipment into the wall.