12 ms·

[Chromebooks are the new fashion in elementary school. They are cheap; they are everywhere. And they are unusable by kids in kindergarten through, in some case,

by kumarm 8y ago

[Chromebooks are the new fashion in elementary school. They are cheap; they are everywhere. And they are unusable by kids in kindergarten through, in some case, third grade.] iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. I am surprised every time I see iPad's being used in schools. Chromebooks at least put kids in path of being producers rather than mere consumers of content.

kgwgk 8y ago
They also have books. Should they have only white sheets of paper instead?
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Dude, just point at a tree.
vortico 8y ago
I agree with the mentality that touch = consume and type = produce. The efficiency and imtimacy of user interaction of keyboards is simply unmatched with other competing input devices. Open-ness of platforms is secondary.
- lostgame 8y ago
  Bluetooth keyboard works great for me.
  - vortico 8y ago
    A bluetooth keyboard is a keyboard, I'm not saying it isn't.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  Conjecture: this is a tech-centric viewpoint. I have quite a few lawyer and doctor friends who use tablets first (usually with a BT keyboard) and only break out the computer when they need it for some very particular reason. If you don't need root on a beefy machine and/or Windows-specific software, then a modern tablet with a bluetooth keyboard gives you more than enough compute and all the applications you need to be productive. Often with a better UX.
  - vortico 8y ago
    It's an every-field-centric viewpoint. Every field that creates something is more efficient with a keyboard. You even just supported this point yourself.
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      >> usually with a BT keyboard > is more efficient with a keyboard ...?
briandear 8y ago
Chromebooke are more consumer than iPads. Can you run iMovie on a Chromebook? GarageBand or similar? How about all of the adobe design software for iPad? Or Concepts for drawing? How about Pages, Numbers Keynote? (Sure there are Google equivalents, but the argument is that iPad is for consumption and not creation.) It’s 2013 thinking to suggest iPads are for content consumption and it’s ridiculous to assert that a Chromebook has any advantage for creation.
- compostable 8y ago
  A Chromebook has a great advantage for creation when used for things like Google Docs. Many kids become prolific writers, especially since they are teaching typing in 3rd grade. It's amazing to see your kid bang out a story for fun.
  - lostgame 8y ago
    Google docs is for iOS, as well? Not sure how this is an advantage. And so many people here seem to be forgetting that a bluetooth keyboard is inexpensive and incredibly viable.
    - compostable 8y ago
      It's one more thing to lug around, keep charged, etc.
      - lostgame 8y ago
        I use a bluetooth keyboard case. I simply charge it with my iPad. It stays attached.
  - briandear 8y ago
    An iPad has both Google Docs and Pages. Personally, I have privacy issues with Google as well. With Apple, I don’t have a fear that their 3d grade story will end up used to target them for advertising later. I don’t feel comfortable having my kids’ academic life stored on Google servers.
paganel 8y ago
Honest question: why should kids in kidnergarten use computer-like devices? What are the benefits? Are there any benefits?
- abrowne 8y ago
  That was my first question too when I read the article.
- derefr 8y ago
  This is a mindset that assumes kids are using computers to learn how to use computers. Kids in kindergarten can actually use tablets, to learn other stuff. Any stuff. They can indulge their own interests, in a way that's nearly impossible in any other medium without assistance of someone older than them. A tablet is the first cut of the way children use the Holodeck in Star Trek. You can't (usually) just ask for what you want, and get it (kids don't have a mental model of computers that works well enough to cope with how bad computers still are at conversation)—but you sure can point at what you want, and get it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  1. Skill Building. I.e., the same reason we start teaching them to write letters in kindergarten even though they won't have a practical need for writing until late in elementary school. So that there's a foundation to build on later. 2. Feedback. E.g., there are some good fractions apps that help students understand what it means to "divide" a set of things into a set of groups of things. you can do that on pencil/paper or with other props, but there's no tight feedback loop. It's unclear whether (2) is strictly a good thing; learning how to validate your own results is also an important skill...
- rubinelli 8y ago
  A good example of a game that lets kindergartners play with concepts that even kids much older often struggle with is Dragonbox: https://dragonbox.com/ https://dragonbox.com/ This kind of self-directed, exploratory learning can be very effective.
lostgame 8y ago
I am getting tired of hearing that the iPad is 'not for producers.' I was way up there with you right up until I wrote the majority of my upcoming solo hip-hop record in Garageband with Audio Units on my iPad mini, with an AKAI MDP32 as my external MIDI device and an Apogee sound card for insane-quality audio. Then, due to the amazing workflow, I was able to take those tracks into Logic Pro and refine the hell of out them. Nothing else even comes close to that workflow, as an audio producer of 14+ years. I make skits, constantly, in iMovie, and even rough drafts of music video ideas on my Mini. Kids can do the same. It's so easy to use. I wrote the 32-page business plan for my music label almost entirely on Pages with a bluetooth keyboard. Kids can do the same for schoolwork. I use Pixelmator almost every day to develop high-quality images. The full photoshop is on it's way. There are no such plans for Android.[1] Kids can even learn rudimentary code with Playgrounds. Not to mention the litany of great educational apps available. I mean, I could see claiming an Android tablet as a 'non-producer' device, as it certainly lacks software of a quality anywhere close to GarageBand or iMovie, but the iPad? It's like you haven't even used it, or actually have no use case to use it for creation. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/adobe-is-said-to-plan-photoshop-for-ipad-in-app-strategy-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/adobe-is-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  > It's like you haven't even used it, or actually have no use case to use it for creation. FWIW iPads and android tablets tend to not work for most software development tasks.The "iPads aren't for producers" mentality might be more of a "iPads aren't for Software producers (and some types of engineers)"
  - lostgame 8y ago
    producer ≠ developer. I'm a producer. I produce short film and music, amongst others. I'm also a developer. I use xCode, Dreamweaver, and Unity to develop applications and games. Developing - that's what computers are still for. And devs know that. Developing on-device will come, in time. I, for one, don't have a problem with needing an extra dev machine, specifically for the purpose. I understand this represents a financial burden for some, especially considering the cost of a new MacBook. I'm fortunate enough to have had a Mac by my side since I was 14, and I'm 29 now, which means more than half my life. So for me, already a Mac user, the iOS dev ecosystem was actually a blessing. I understand, however, I am obviously an outlier in that set of data.
mcphage 8y ago
> iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. This was a tired and false talking point five years ago; why is it still being regurgitated as if it were true?
kickscondor 8y ago
My kids make movies, animations, record themselves telling stories, build 3-D models, script things (using Scratch Jr. - which is totally underwhelming to a programmer, but is fantastic for this age group). No, they don't produce documents or write code or answer e-mails. But they can't read yet, so I think that's okay for now.
Zelizz 8y ago
I wrote a number of essays in high school on my iPad (the first one) using the touchscreen keyboard. I also did digital painting using the Brushes app and my finger (later with a touchscreen stylus), and made some simple music tracks using piano and looper apps. On the original iPad, with software that was basically available since launch. Nowadays I do computer graphics for fun, and I want to be able to create full applications, so I lug around my MacBook, but I have no doubt if I upgraded from my venerable iPad 1 I could find apps that let me play with shaders, or web-apps that let me do quite a bit more.

by kumarm 8y ago

kgwgk 8y ago

They also have books. Should they have only white sheets of paper instead?

maxerickson 8y ago
Dude, just point at a tree.

vortico 8y ago

I agree with the mentality that touch = consume and type = produce. The efficiency and imtimacy of user interaction of keyboards is simply unmatched with other competing input devices. Open-ness of platforms is secondary.

lostgame 8y ago
Bluetooth keyboard works great for me.
- vortico 8y ago
  A bluetooth keyboard is a keyboard, I'm not saying it isn't.
throwawayjava 8y ago
Conjecture: this is a tech-centric viewpoint. I have quite a few lawyer and doctor friends who use tablets first (usually with a BT keyboard) and only break out the computer when they need it for some very particular reason. If you don't need root on a beefy machine and/or Windows-specific software, then a modern tablet with a bluetooth keyboard gives you more than enough compute and all the applications you need to be productive. Often with a better UX.
- vortico 8y ago
  It's an every-field-centric viewpoint. Every field that creates something is more efficient with a keyboard. You even just supported this point yourself.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    >> usually with a BT keyboard > is more efficient with a keyboard ...?

briandear 8y ago

Chromebooke are more consumer than iPads. Can you run iMovie on a Chromebook? GarageBand or similar? How about all of the adobe design software for iPad? Or Concepts for drawing? How about Pages, Numbers Keynote? (Sure there are Google equivalents, but the argument is that iPad is for consumption and not creation.) It’s 2013 thinking to suggest iPads are for content consumption and it’s ridiculous to assert that a Chromebook has any advantage for creation.

compostable 8y ago
A Chromebook has a great advantage for creation when used for things like Google Docs. Many kids become prolific writers, especially since they are teaching typing in 3rd grade. It's amazing to see your kid bang out a story for fun.
- lostgame 8y ago
  Google docs is for iOS, as well? Not sure how this is an advantage. And so many people here seem to be forgetting that a bluetooth keyboard is inexpensive and incredibly viable.
  - compostable 8y ago
    It's one more thing to lug around, keep charged, etc.
    - lostgame 8y ago
      I use a bluetooth keyboard case. I simply charge it with my iPad. It stays attached.
- briandear 8y ago
  An iPad has both Google Docs and Pages. Personally, I have privacy issues with Google as well. With Apple, I don’t have a fear that their 3d grade story will end up used to target them for advertising later. I don’t feel comfortable having my kids’ academic life stored on Google servers.

paganel 8y ago

Honest question: why should kids in kidnergarten use computer-like devices? What are the benefits? Are there any benefits?

abrowne 8y ago
That was my first question too when I read the article.
derefr 8y ago
This is a mindset that assumes kids are using computers to learn how to use computers. Kids in kindergarten can actually use tablets, to learn other stuff. Any stuff. They can indulge their own interests, in a way that's nearly impossible in any other medium without assistance of someone older than them. A tablet is the first cut of the way children use the Holodeck in Star Trek. You can't (usually) just ask for what you want, and get it (kids don't have a mental model of computers that works well enough to cope with how bad computers still are at conversation)—but you sure can point at what you want, and get it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
throwawayjava 8y ago
1. Skill Building. I.e., the same reason we start teaching them to write letters in kindergarten even though they won't have a practical need for writing until late in elementary school. So that there's a foundation to build on later. 2. Feedback. E.g., there are some good fractions apps that help students understand what it means to "divide" a set of things into a set of groups of things. you can do that on pencil/paper or with other props, but there's no tight feedback loop. It's unclear whether (2) is strictly a good thing; learning how to validate your own results is also an important skill...
rubinelli 8y ago
A good example of a game that lets kindergartners play with concepts that even kids much older often struggle with is Dragonbox: https://dragonbox.com/ https://dragonbox.com/ This kind of self-directed, exploratory learning can be very effective.

lostgame 8y ago

I am getting tired of hearing that the iPad is 'not for producers.' I was way up there with you right up until I wrote the majority of my upcoming solo hip-hop record in Garageband with Audio Units on my iPad mini, with an AKAI MDP32 as my external MIDI device and an Apogee sound card for insane-quality audio. Then, due to the amazing workflow, I was able to take those tracks into Logic Pro and refine the hell of out them. Nothing else even comes close to that workflow, as an audio producer of 14+ years. I make skits, constantly, in iMovie, and even rough drafts of music video ideas on my Mini. Kids can do the same. It's so easy to use. I wrote the 32-page business plan for my music label almost entirely on Pages with a bluetooth keyboard. Kids can do the same for schoolwork. I use Pixelmator almost every day to develop high-quality images. The full photoshop is on it's way. There are no such plans for Android.[1] Kids can even learn rudimentary code with Playgrounds. Not to mention the litany of great educational apps available. I mean, I could see claiming an Android tablet as a 'non-producer' device, as it certainly lacks software of a quality anywhere close to GarageBand or iMovie, but the iPad? It's like you haven't even used it, or actually have no use case to use it for creation. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/adobe-is-said-to-plan-photoshop-for-ipad-in-app-strategy-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/adobe-is-...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
throwawayjava 8y ago
> It's like you haven't even used it, or actually have no use case to use it for creation. FWIW iPads and android tablets tend to not work for most software development tasks.The "iPads aren't for producers" mentality might be more of a "iPads aren't for Software producers (and some types of engineers)"
- lostgame 8y ago
  producer ≠ developer. I'm a producer. I produce short film and music, amongst others. I'm also a developer. I use xCode, Dreamweaver, and Unity to develop applications and games. Developing - that's what computers are still for. And devs know that. Developing on-device will come, in time. I, for one, don't have a problem with needing an extra dev machine, specifically for the purpose. I understand this represents a financial burden for some, especially considering the cost of a new MacBook. I'm fortunate enough to have had a Mac by my side since I was 14, and I'm 29 now, which means more than half my life. So for me, already a Mac user, the iOS dev ecosystem was actually a blessing. I understand, however, I am obviously an outlier in that set of data.

mcphage 8y ago

> iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. This was a tired and false talking point five years ago; why is it still being regurgitated as if it were true?

kickscondor 8y ago

My kids make movies, animations, record themselves telling stories, build 3-D models, script things (using Scratch Jr. - which is totally underwhelming to a programmer, but is fantastic for this age group). No, they don't produce documents or write code or answer e-mails. But they can't read yet, so I think that's okay for now.

Zelizz 8y ago

I wrote a number of essays in high school on my iPad (the first one) using the touchscreen keyboard. I also did digital painting using the Brushes app and my finger (later with a touchscreen stylus), and made some simple music tracks using piano and looper apps. On the original iPad, with software that was basically available since launch. Nowadays I do computer graphics for fun, and I want to be able to create full applications, so I lug around my MacBook, but I have no doubt if I upgraded from my venerable iPad 1 I could find apps that let me play with shaders, or web-apps that let me do quite a bit more.