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A Kindergartener’s Best Computer Is About to Die

58 points by kickscondor 8y ago

JohnClark1337 8y ago
You can argue about features all you want but in the end it's all about money. Schools don't have the money to buy and repair (because you have to assume the kid will break it) ipads. Chromebooks are far easier to repair and cheaper. I will now allow you to argue for a Utopian world where money is no longer an issue.
rossdavidh 8y ago
I'm not totally certain that K-2 spending less time in front of a screen while at school would be a bad thing. I'm sure they get plenty of touchscreen time at home.
- kickscondor 8y ago
  I cover this a bit in my reply to Eli. https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-chromebooks/ https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-chromebooks/ I agree that there should be a limit (and have practiced this in my classes) but there are some incredible uses of touchscreens that I can't ignore.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    I'm not sure if you already have a blog post about it, but would you mind describing some of those uses? It's probably obvious to you, but I've never taught young children, so it's unclear to me what kind of techniques you are using. I taught English as a foreign language for 5 years at high school level and since I'm a computer programmer by training, my colleagues were very keen for me to introduce technology to the class. I started from that perspective, but gradually reduced the technology until at 5 years I was using a blackboard, paper and pencils only. For me, (and especially for teaching language, I suspect) it was much more important to keep students engaged and keep their comprehension levels high. I spent a lot of time testing those comprehension levels, modelling responses and encouraging interaction amongst the students. I found that technology moved the focus of the students from the subject to the technology. Instead engaging in the subject, they would become passive and be focused on the device, or presentation. We even had a big wall of dictionaries in the classroom and I asked the students to use it as a resource of last resort. Instead, I wanted them to find people in the room who knew the answer to their question -- teaching language is about communication after all ;-) From that perspective, it's interesting to hear from someone who seems to take a different approach. I'd love to know what kinds of things you are aiming towards and how the use of technology provides it.
  - athenot 8y ago
    What kind of incredible uses? I'm genuinely curious as I've delayed introducing tablets and computers to my kids until they can do something creative with them.
    - eric_bullington 8y ago
      Don't know if you're familiar with the Dragonbox apps (original for algebra and Dragonbox Elements for geometry). Those are incredible learning experiences that would not be possible on paper. Even a desktop w/mouse for those apps wouldn't be ideal, whereas a tablet or mobile phone is perfect.
    - kickscondor 8y ago
      I mentioned this example elsewhere in this thread, so I'll just repeat it here: > Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter, story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you name it. I do group activities that involve creating things together that explore the topic. (I look at technology not as a 'subject' but as a 'language' or 'medium'.) So, at home, rather than finding an educational app for them, I would recommend giving them a tablet so they can film the things they experience. Things they see in the backyard or things they make. They can record themselves explaining a topic they learned about. Have them make music (the byte.co Music Maker app is a good one for a child who has no experience with it) and have them mess with vector-drawing or 3-D modeling apps. Then talk to them about what they made and help them get to the next level. The tablet is the 'medium' and you are the 'scaffold'. They need you to find out where to go next. And, yeah, put the tablets away half the time so they can experience things directly. (Sounds like this is perhaps where your concern lies.) I've also had great success with Twine once they can read. Thanks for the great question! I hope this helps. It's really cool that you asked.
      - earenndil 8y ago
        > Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter, story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you name it. I fail to see how this is something that couldn't be accomplished with paper And using the tablets half the time seems like wayy too much imo.
- briandear 8y ago
  It depends on the training of the teacher. You can do some amazing things with iPad in the classroom — assuming teachers use it for more than a YouTube player.
jacobolus 8y ago
This post doesn’t really explain what is so great about iPads for small children, and as far as I can tell doesn’t link to much external explanation about it. Maybe the author had some previous posts explaining this that regular blog readers know about as context? Is there some report [anecdotal, peer-reviewed, whatever] comparing kids’ trying to learn using an iPad vs. physical materials? What specific ideas or subjects are effectively learned on the iPad? Is the iPad being used as a substitute for television? As a way to scale teacher time better when there are many students per teacher? As a tool which a teacher and student will use together? ... My personal bias would be to generally occupy small children with something tangible (sand toys, climbing equipment, blocks, balls, toy cars, marbles, chalk, scissors and paper, pattern blocks, dice, index cards, yarn, popsicle sticks, pipe cleaners, gears, pulleys, springs, ..., and lots of paper books) until they are a bit older. If there are many students per teacher and the teacher’s attention is limited, students can often entertain themselves while learning a great deal by working/playing in groups using physical materials.
- kickscondor 8y ago
  I do cite one paper (and there are more) - I will flesh these ideas out in the blog over the next little while. You are understandably skeptical.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    Okay. I guess the quotation wasn’t that exciting to me. > Children as young as 24 months can complete items requiring cognitive engagement on a touch screen device, with no verbal instruction and minimal child–administrator interaction. This paves the way for using touch screen technology for language and administrator independent developmental assessment in toddlers. This sounds like a way of handing a child off to a device so that adults can otherwise ignore them. (Which, to be fair, will unfortunately happen a lot anyway in schools.) And the focus is on “assessment” rather than teaching/learning. Did you find that there were ideas or subjects that could be taught better on an iPad than using alternative materials (with a teacher standing by to explain in either case)?
- vertline3 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
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mastazi 8y ago
Since OP seems to be keeping an eye on this thread, I'll ask here: have you considered using other tablets (Samsung etc.)? In case you did, and it didn't work as well as the iPad: what makes the iPad the ideal device in kindergarten? Construction quality? Software/Apps?
- briandear 8y ago
  This is Apple’s marketing so obviously it’s biased, but here: https://www.apple.com/education/products/ https://www.apple.com/education/products/ How good is augmented reality on generic tablets? ..just as one example. Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily are unmatched by competing devices. For a media consumption device, iPad could be overkill, but for everything else, it’s almost perfect.
  - lemming 8y ago
    Say I'm sceptical about this but willing to be convinced. Are there good resources about the apps etc I should be looking at, or descriptions of how to use the iPad effectively for education that I could check out? The Apple page you linked to has some amazing looking things but is basically marketing blurb, as you point out.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    > Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily are unmatched by competing devices. There is nothing on that marketing page that seems to especially improve learning vs. physical materials for anyone under about 10 years old. And frankly most stuff for 10–15 year olds can still (a) probably be done as well if not better using physical materials, and (b) isn’t significantly different between an iPad and a laptop or desktop machine, and often could be done on a machine shared by several students working together or taking turns. I can well imagine that someone trying to learn how to program might want to use some kind of computer, but even then why an iPad instead of a little turtle robot that responds to Logo, or whatever? Someone trying to learn how to make electronic music or edit video might get a lot of mileage out of computers (iPad or otherwise) but I can’t imagine this has become a core part of the school pedagogy. I can also imagine that for anyone in middle school and up there might be a big benefit to carrying an iPad around instead of a giant backpack stuffed with 5 separate overweight textbooks. Though there are some advantages to the physical books too. * * * Instead of telling a bunch of skeptical non-teacher techies that we “haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech”, maybe you can explain what that training would entail? What in your experience has the iPad been so powerful for that couldn’t be done without computers? What age kids are you working with, and what are they working on?
tylerchilds 8y ago
What about plugging a mouse into the Chromebooks? I distinctly remember being in kindergarten and using a mouse as my pointer input. I played Treasure Mountain! and some other educational games. Kids are pretty capable and adept at picking up new things. We should be pushing forward with tech literacy while they're still young and not afraid of breaking technology. Touch screens are great because they provided a very directed experience, but I believe that has more to do with the software itself being designed more intuitively when you're limiting the user to app-style software. I think software engineers should be focused on making accessible software for these target demographics. I think getting kids used to keyboard/mice/touchpads will get them more comfortable and prepare them for more complicated things down the line, like coding and word processing where keyboards are objectively a the best input.
- j2kun 8y ago
  Seriously. I was using a mouse at 3. This is a no brainer.
  - compostable 8y ago
    It's one more thing to lug around. No one is saying that a mouse is hard to use, the point is that touch screens are even more intuitive. I have heard anecdotal evidence of very young babies, like 9 months - 1 year, using ABC apps. They just "get it" and for them, "it just works".
- tonysdg 8y ago
  Great for normal users, awful for disabled users. A touchscreen is light-years ahead of mice for individuals who lack or are incapable of fine motor control skills.
  - ledriveby 8y ago
    ChromeOS is touch friendly, and there are several really good and inexpensive Chromebooks with 180 degree hinges for a tablet-like form factor.
  - 8y ago
kumarm 8y ago
[Chromebooks are the new fashion in elementary school. They are cheap; they are everywhere. And they are unusable by kids in kindergarten through, in some case, third grade.] iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. I am surprised every time I see iPad's being used in schools. Chromebooks at least put kids in path of being producers rather than mere consumers of content.
- kgwgk 8y ago
  They also have books. Should they have only white sheets of paper instead?
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Dude, just point at a tree.
- vortico 8y ago
  I agree with the mentality that touch = consume and type = produce. The efficiency and imtimacy of user interaction of keyboards is simply unmatched with other competing input devices. Open-ness of platforms is secondary.
  - lostgame 8y ago
    Bluetooth keyboard works great for me.
    - vortico 8y ago
      A bluetooth keyboard is a keyboard, I'm not saying it isn't.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    Conjecture: this is a tech-centric viewpoint. I have quite a few lawyer and doctor friends who use tablets first (usually with a BT keyboard) and only break out the computer when they need it for some very particular reason. If you don't need root on a beefy machine and/or Windows-specific software, then a modern tablet with a bluetooth keyboard gives you more than enough compute and all the applications you need to be productive. Often with a better UX.
bdz 8y ago
I bought a Xiaomi Mipad 4 recently and honestly it's incredibly good https://www.mi.com/mipad4/ https://www.mi.com/mipad4/ Snapdragon 660, 6000mAH battery, 3GB RAM, 32GB storage. The display is so-so 1920x1200, not the best but still good. And that was $180 from Aliexpress (The iPad Mini is $399)
- haser_au 8y ago
  Ditto. I bought the Mipad 3 from gearbest, and haven't looked back. Awesome little device for plane rides and keeping our little fella occupied during long car trips.
- compostable 8y ago
  Android is a deal breaker though for many people. For example, I don't want to worry about whether I have Ice Cream Cookie, Yogurtland, Lolly Pop, etc. I don't want to have to run Norton Antivirus on it. In fact, I don't want to be forced to think about security at all. I want an app store with trusted apps, not hackers.
  - vxNsr 8y ago
    While all the points you mention do bear some credence, I think the biggest argument for iOS tablets over Android is the lack of first party tablet app support on Android. I;m not saying there are no tablet apps, just they're a lot less common vs iPad apps, which often are a lot more than just scaled up iphone apps.
    - Krasnol 8y ago
      Where is the exact problem there? I never came upon an app that would cause a problem on my Android tablet because it's not a "first party tablet app". Especially nothing that would justify the immense cost of an iPad.
      - vxNsr 8y ago
        I guess it's a question of convenience, if all you're getting is a big phone app, it's not always gonna work very well, I'm not sure what you mean by "would cause a problem" but I've often come upon apps that simply aren't nearly as easy to use on a tablet compared to a phone.
sand500 8y ago
What about a cheap chromebook tablet like Acer chromebook tab 10($329)?
slg 8y ago
Those in this thread recommending Chromebooks are missing a big part of the equation. You don't need to be able to read to use an iOS device. Chromebooks are much more reliant on the user knowing the written word to interact with the device (unless their is some elementary school mode that I am unaware of). As long as you can recognize icons, you can interact with an iOS device and switch between apps.
- robotron 8y ago
  What's wrong with knowing how to read before using devices?
  - WalterGR 8y ago
    I’m curious how you’re applying that to kindergartners. I started using computers around age 4. I couldn’t read for shit. My parents didn’t withhold technology because I couldn’t read the manual. I’m thankful for that, as now I’m a software engineer and love it. What insane gatekeeping.
compostable 8y ago
This is a real shame. Our family has really enjoyed our iPad Minis. They have lasted so long that it makes more sense for the kids to get MacBooks next ( in addition to needing iPhones anyway ). But otherwise I would have happily refreshed them by purchasing the latest model. The form factor is ideal for kids.
keithnz 8y ago
Tablets aren't going away? Just one product is getting end of lifed and you liked that product and are miffy about it? ok, fine.... but the aritcle seems to try to paint a picture that it was the one and only true device and now kindergarenters are doomed :)
- kickscondor 8y ago
  This iPad hasn't seen an update since 2015. The standard iPad is now being marketed to schools at the $299 price. No, it's not gone - which is why I thought to write this article, as an attempt to see the usefulness of this specific model and size. I agree that I'm being a bit hyperbolic - but it's not just that I like the product. It works _very_ well for a specific audience - K-2. Thought it was worth mentioning.
derefr 8y ago
Are iPads really so unique that losing them is some sort of tragedy to education? I thought the reason Apple was getting out of the entry-level tablet market, was that it was being commoditized by dirt-cheap Android tablets that—at least for the particular things people want a tablet for—do all the same things an iPad does. (They don't have the same third-party app ecosystem, but if you're just using an iPad to consume content using the web browser/book reader/etc., there's no difference.) In other words: presuming the educational software isn't already there either way, and still needs to be built—wouldn't Kindergarteners be served just as well by the iPad dying, the development of such software moving to Android, and the kids ending up with a stack of $50 tablets from AliExpress rather than $299 iPads? (Easier for low-income-area schools to get ahold of, too!)
- PinkMilkshake 8y ago
  Have you ever used a $50 Android tablet? Those sorts of tablets are almost completely unusable. And I don't mean that in a snobby tech-elitist kind of way. I mean they are literally broken, at least every one I've used or seen reviewed.
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Merrill 8y ago
There are Chromebooks with touchscreens available from several manufacturers. There are also touchscreen laptops - I use a Lenovo Windows 10 touchscreen laptop every day.
- kickscondor 8y ago
  I have tested these out in class and they've been pretty good - the 'gorilla arms' thing that's out there doesn't apply to children it seems.
wemdyjreichert 8y ago
Wow, that's funny: I distinctly remember never crying over not having an iPad mini in kindergarten. They didn't even exist. And now I feel old.
WalterGR 8y ago
Sure, by now children can do some rudimentary typing and mouse flicking. But if you think trackpads are awful for adults, you should observe children using them. Tears, people. Two days ago a mathematician was explaining a concept to me that involved math I’ve long forgotten combined with math I’ve never learned. When I told him I didn’t completely follow, he said “It’s super easy,” and repeated what he had already said - but more slowly. Now, there were no tears involved, but anyone who is trying to explain or teach something they’re an expert in/at to someone (of any age) who is very much not would do well to remember the three sentences I’ve quoted above. Tears or no, at any age, it’s incredibly frustrating.
dragonwriter 8y ago
The iPad Mini isn't the only touchscreen tablet in its rough size class; there are plenty that aren't discontinued; Apple isn't the whole tablet world. Plus, to the extent that touch is a desirable interaction for the target age group, many current Chromebooks are touch devices. (Even the tablet-convertible ones, though are not a convenient size for handheld use by a kindergartner, to be sure.)
Markoff 8y ago
i find it fascinating someone it's not ashamed to admit they are extremely lazy and just hand out toddlers tablets to get rid of them, that's like laziest thing you can do - give child a tablet or let them sit in front of TV the kindergarten for my child doesn't even have TV and nobody has problem, the other branch has one TV which they don't really switch on, can't imagine having tablet in kindergarten, that's just pure laziness i let my child watch TV like max. one hour a week as reward after trimming nails, of course pretty much zero time with mobile/tablet, it would be minutes per week when watching over my shoulder at some of our photos/videos or rarely gifs i watch i don't see a reason why should child in kindergarten spend any time in front of screen anywhere, i ruined my eyes by staring at screen, that can't be healthy for children eyes and for many other reasons i would be curious if they use tablets in other European countries or it's just another example of "superior" american education system
kwhitefoot 8y ago
Why the hell does anyone in kindergarten need a computer? They should be out in the playground getting muddy and having fun, riding trikes and soapboxes, climbing trees and building forts.
- Markoff 8y ago
  gotta keep them getting allergies to feed pharma lobby, so it's better if they are just holding tablets in sterile environment
- earenndil 8y ago
  I agree-- partly. There are skills kids can start learning in kindergarten that they can use later. Counting, basic arithmetic, the alphabet, simple reading, general conventions that are followed in school. But there is no reason for kindergarteners to be using computers. And I say this as someone who started using the computer at 5 -- I wasn't doing anything remotely interesting on it until at least 9.
shirro 8y ago
My kids started with the ipod touches and then on to the ipad when it came out. They got the mini a few years ago. They had touch screens since they were infants. I am a bit jaded with the technology. The experience is too removed from the real world and they miss out on interactions with both other humans and the surrounding environment to their detriment. We won't be updating their devices and I would make different choices a second time around. I think chromebooks and PCs are even more useless at that age but being less seductive I would hope kids get bored quickly and instead engage in social play or interacting with physical objects.

58 points by kickscondor 8y ago

You can argue about features all you want but in the end it's all about money. Schools don't have the money to buy and repair (because you have to assume the kid will break it) ipads. Chromebooks are far easier to repair and cheaper. I will now allow you to argue for a Utopian world where money is no longer an issue.

rossdavidh 8y ago

I'm not totally certain that K-2 spending less time in front of a screen while at school would be a bad thing. I'm sure they get plenty of touchscreen time at home.

kickscondor 8y ago
I cover this a bit in my reply to Eli. https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-chromebooks/ https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/28/caution-chromebooks/ I agree that there should be a limit (and have practiced this in my classes) but there are some incredible uses of touchscreens that I can't ignore.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I'm not sure if you already have a blog post about it, but would you mind describing some of those uses? It's probably obvious to you, but I've never taught young children, so it's unclear to me what kind of techniques you are using. I taught English as a foreign language for 5 years at high school level and since I'm a computer programmer by training, my colleagues were very keen for me to introduce technology to the class. I started from that perspective, but gradually reduced the technology until at 5 years I was using a blackboard, paper and pencils only. For me, (and especially for teaching language, I suspect) it was much more important to keep students engaged and keep their comprehension levels high. I spent a lot of time testing those comprehension levels, modelling responses and encouraging interaction amongst the students. I found that technology moved the focus of the students from the subject to the technology. Instead engaging in the subject, they would become passive and be focused on the device, or presentation. We even had a big wall of dictionaries in the classroom and I asked the students to use it as a resource of last resort. Instead, I wanted them to find people in the room who knew the answer to their question -- teaching language is about communication after all ;-) From that perspective, it's interesting to hear from someone who seems to take a different approach. I'd love to know what kinds of things you are aiming towards and how the use of technology provides it.
- athenot 8y ago
  What kind of incredible uses? I'm genuinely curious as I've delayed introducing tablets and computers to my kids until they can do something creative with them.
  - eric_bullington 8y ago
    Don't know if you're familiar with the Dragonbox apps (original for algebra and Dragonbox Elements for geometry). Those are incredible learning experiences that would not be possible on paper. Even a desktop w/mouse for those apps wouldn't be ideal, whereas a tablet or mobile phone is perfect.
  - kickscondor 8y ago
    I mentioned this example elsewhere in this thread, so I'll just repeat it here: > Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter, story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you name it. I do group activities that involve creating things together that explore the topic. (I look at technology not as a 'subject' but as a 'language' or 'medium'.) So, at home, rather than finding an educational app for them, I would recommend giving them a tablet so they can film the things they experience. Things they see in the backyard or things they make. They can record themselves explaining a topic they learned about. Have them make music (the byte.co Music Maker app is a good one for a child who has no experience with it) and have them mess with vector-drawing or 3-D modeling apps. Then talk to them about what they made and help them get to the next level. The tablet is the 'medium' and you are the 'scaffold'. They need you to find out where to go next. And, yeah, put the tablets away half the time so they can experience things directly. (Sounds like this is perhaps where your concern lies.) I've also had great success with Twine once they can read. Thanks for the great question! I hope this helps. It's really cool that you asked.
    - earenndil 8y ago
      > Just today we did an activity where all the kids 'drew' a visualization of a certain math problem and then we passed the tablets around and added on top off them and then I showed the results on the projector. There was laughter, story-telling, kids helping each other, moving around the classroom, you name it. I fail to see how this is something that couldn't be accomplished with paper And using the tablets half the time seems like wayy too much imo.
briandear 8y ago
It depends on the training of the teacher. You can do some amazing things with iPad in the classroom — assuming teachers use it for more than a YouTube player.

jacobolus 8y ago

This post doesn’t really explain what is so great about iPads for small children, and as far as I can tell doesn’t link to much external explanation about it. Maybe the author had some previous posts explaining this that regular blog readers know about as context? Is there some report [anecdotal, peer-reviewed, whatever] comparing kids’ trying to learn using an iPad vs. physical materials? What specific ideas or subjects are effectively learned on the iPad? Is the iPad being used as a substitute for television? As a way to scale teacher time better when there are many students per teacher? As a tool which a teacher and student will use together? ... My personal bias would be to generally occupy small children with something tangible (sand toys, climbing equipment, blocks, balls, toy cars, marbles, chalk, scissors and paper, pattern blocks, dice, index cards, yarn, popsicle sticks, pipe cleaners, gears, pulleys, springs, ..., and lots of paper books) until they are a bit older. If there are many students per teacher and the teacher’s attention is limited, students can often entertain themselves while learning a great deal by working/playing in groups using physical materials.

kickscondor 8y ago
I do cite one paper (and there are more) - I will flesh these ideas out in the blog over the next little while. You are understandably skeptical.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  Okay. I guess the quotation wasn’t that exciting to me. > Children as young as 24 months can complete items requiring cognitive engagement on a touch screen device, with no verbal instruction and minimal child–administrator interaction. This paves the way for using touch screen technology for language and administrator independent developmental assessment in toddlers. This sounds like a way of handing a child off to a device so that adults can otherwise ignore them. (Which, to be fair, will unfortunately happen a lot anyway in schools.) And the focus is on “assessment” rather than teaching/learning. Did you find that there were ideas or subjects that could be taught better on an iPad than using alternative materials (with a teacher standing by to explain in either case)?
vertline3 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

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mastazi 8y ago

Since OP seems to be keeping an eye on this thread, I'll ask here: have you considered using other tablets (Samsung etc.)? In case you did, and it didn't work as well as the iPad: what makes the iPad the ideal device in kindergarten? Construction quality? Software/Apps?

briandear 8y ago
This is Apple’s marketing so obviously it’s biased, but here: https://www.apple.com/education/products/ https://www.apple.com/education/products/ How good is augmented reality on generic tablets? ..just as one example. Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily are unmatched by competing devices. For a media consumption device, iPad could be overkill, but for everything else, it’s almost perfect.
- lemming 8y ago
  Say I'm sceptical about this but willing to be convinced. Are there good resources about the apps etc I should be looking at, or descriptions of how to use the iPad effectively for education that I could check out? The Apple page you linked to has some amazing looking things but is basically marketing blurb, as you point out.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  > Many people criticizing iPads haven’t used them for education recently or haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech effectively. The curriculum assistance, available (quality) apps and overall device versatily are unmatched by competing devices. There is nothing on that marketing page that seems to especially improve learning vs. physical materials for anyone under about 10 years old. And frankly most stuff for 10–15 year olds can still (a) probably be done as well if not better using physical materials, and (b) isn’t significantly different between an iPad and a laptop or desktop machine, and often could be done on a machine shared by several students working together or taking turns. I can well imagine that someone trying to learn how to program might want to use some kind of computer, but even then why an iPad instead of a little turtle robot that responds to Logo, or whatever? Someone trying to learn how to make electronic music or edit video might get a lot of mileage out of computers (iPad or otherwise) but I can’t imagine this has become a core part of the school pedagogy. I can also imagine that for anyone in middle school and up there might be a big benefit to carrying an iPad around instead of a giant backpack stuffed with 5 separate overweight textbooks. Though there are some advantages to the physical books too. * * * Instead of telling a bunch of skeptical non-teacher techies that we “haven’t been trained on how to fully leverage the tech”, maybe you can explain what that training would entail? What in your experience has the iPad been so powerful for that couldn’t be done without computers? What age kids are you working with, and what are they working on?

tylerchilds 8y ago

What about plugging a mouse into the Chromebooks? I distinctly remember being in kindergarten and using a mouse as my pointer input. I played Treasure Mountain! and some other educational games. Kids are pretty capable and adept at picking up new things. We should be pushing forward with tech literacy while they're still young and not afraid of breaking technology. Touch screens are great because they provided a very directed experience, but I believe that has more to do with the software itself being designed more intuitively when you're limiting the user to app-style software. I think software engineers should be focused on making accessible software for these target demographics. I think getting kids used to keyboard/mice/touchpads will get them more comfortable and prepare them for more complicated things down the line, like coding and word processing where keyboards are objectively a the best input.

j2kun 8y ago
Seriously. I was using a mouse at 3. This is a no brainer.
- compostable 8y ago
  It's one more thing to lug around. No one is saying that a mouse is hard to use, the point is that touch screens are even more intuitive. I have heard anecdotal evidence of very young babies, like 9 months - 1 year, using ABC apps. They just "get it" and for them, "it just works".
tonysdg 8y ago
Great for normal users, awful for disabled users. A touchscreen is light-years ahead of mice for individuals who lack or are incapable of fine motor control skills.
- ledriveby 8y ago
  ChromeOS is touch friendly, and there are several really good and inexpensive Chromebooks with 180 degree hinges for a tablet-like form factor.
- 8y ago

kumarm 8y ago

[Chromebooks are the new fashion in elementary school. They are cheap; they are everywhere. And they are unusable by kids in kindergarten through, in some case, third grade.] iPad's are consumer devices and will not prepare our kids to be producers. I am surprised every time I see iPad's being used in schools. Chromebooks at least put kids in path of being producers rather than mere consumers of content.

kgwgk 8y ago
They also have books. Should they have only white sheets of paper instead?
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Dude, just point at a tree.
vortico 8y ago
I agree with the mentality that touch = consume and type = produce. The efficiency and imtimacy of user interaction of keyboards is simply unmatched with other competing input devices. Open-ness of platforms is secondary.
- lostgame 8y ago
  Bluetooth keyboard works great for me.
  - vortico 8y ago
    A bluetooth keyboard is a keyboard, I'm not saying it isn't.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  Conjecture: this is a tech-centric viewpoint. I have quite a few lawyer and doctor friends who use tablets first (usually with a BT keyboard) and only break out the computer when they need it for some very particular reason. If you don't need root on a beefy machine and/or Windows-specific software, then a modern tablet with a bluetooth keyboard gives you more than enough compute and all the applications you need to be productive. Often with a better UX.

bdz 8y ago

I bought a Xiaomi Mipad 4 recently and honestly it's incredibly good https://www.mi.com/mipad4/ https://www.mi.com/mipad4/ Snapdragon 660, 6000mAH battery, 3GB RAM, 32GB storage. The display is so-so 1920x1200, not the best but still good. And that was $180 from Aliexpress (The iPad Mini is $399)

haser_au 8y ago
Ditto. I bought the Mipad 3 from gearbest, and haven't looked back. Awesome little device for plane rides and keeping our little fella occupied during long car trips.
compostable 8y ago
Android is a deal breaker though for many people. For example, I don't want to worry about whether I have Ice Cream Cookie, Yogurtland, Lolly Pop, etc. I don't want to have to run Norton Antivirus on it. In fact, I don't want to be forced to think about security at all. I want an app store with trusted apps, not hackers.
- vxNsr 8y ago
  While all the points you mention do bear some credence, I think the biggest argument for iOS tablets over Android is the lack of first party tablet app support on Android. I;m not saying there are no tablet apps, just they're a lot less common vs iPad apps, which often are a lot more than just scaled up iphone apps.
  - Krasnol 8y ago
    Where is the exact problem there? I never came upon an app that would cause a problem on my Android tablet because it's not a "first party tablet app". Especially nothing that would justify the immense cost of an iPad.
    - vxNsr 8y ago
      I guess it's a question of convenience, if all you're getting is a big phone app, it's not always gonna work very well, I'm not sure what you mean by "would cause a problem" but I've often come upon apps that simply aren't nearly as easy to use on a tablet compared to a phone.

sand500 8y ago

What about a cheap chromebook tablet like Acer chromebook tab 10($329)?

slg 8y ago

Those in this thread recommending Chromebooks are missing a big part of the equation. You don't need to be able to read to use an iOS device. Chromebooks are much more reliant on the user knowing the written word to interact with the device (unless their is some elementary school mode that I am unaware of). As long as you can recognize icons, you can interact with an iOS device and switch between apps.

robotron 8y ago
What's wrong with knowing how to read before using devices?
- WalterGR 8y ago
  I’m curious how you’re applying that to kindergartners. I started using computers around age 4. I couldn’t read for shit. My parents didn’t withhold technology because I couldn’t read the manual. I’m thankful for that, as now I’m a software engineer and love it. What insane gatekeeping.

compostable 8y ago

This is a real shame. Our family has really enjoyed our iPad Minis. They have lasted so long that it makes more sense for the kids to get MacBooks next ( in addition to needing iPhones anyway ). But otherwise I would have happily refreshed them by purchasing the latest model. The form factor is ideal for kids.

keithnz 8y ago

Tablets aren't going away? Just one product is getting end of lifed and you liked that product and are miffy about it? ok, fine.... but the aritcle seems to try to paint a picture that it was the one and only true device and now kindergarenters are doomed :)

kickscondor 8y ago
This iPad hasn't seen an update since 2015. The standard iPad is now being marketed to schools at the $299 price. No, it's not gone - which is why I thought to write this article, as an attempt to see the usefulness of this specific model and size. I agree that I'm being a bit hyperbolic - but it's not just that I like the product. It works _very_ well for a specific audience - K-2. Thought it was worth mentioning.

derefr 8y ago

Are iPads really so unique that losing them is some sort of tragedy to education? I thought the reason Apple was getting out of the entry-level tablet market, was that it was being commoditized by dirt-cheap Android tablets that—at least for the particular things people want a tablet for—do all the same things an iPad does. (They don't have the same third-party app ecosystem, but if you're just using an iPad to consume content using the web browser/book reader/etc., there's no difference.) In other words: presuming the educational software isn't already there either way, and still needs to be built—wouldn't Kindergarteners be served just as well by the iPad dying, the development of such software moving to Android, and the kids ending up with a stack of $50 tablets from AliExpress rather than $299 iPads? (Easier for low-income-area schools to get ahold of, too!)

PinkMilkshake 8y ago
Have you ever used a $50 Android tablet? Those sorts of tablets are almost completely unusable. And I don't mean that in a snobby tech-elitist kind of way. I mean they are literally broken, at least every one I've used or seen reviewed.

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Merrill 8y ago

There are Chromebooks with touchscreens available from several manufacturers. There are also touchscreen laptops - I use a Lenovo Windows 10 touchscreen laptop every day.

kickscondor 8y ago
I have tested these out in class and they've been pretty good - the 'gorilla arms' thing that's out there doesn't apply to children it seems.

wemdyjreichert 8y ago

Wow, that's funny: I distinctly remember never crying over not having an iPad mini in kindergarten. They didn't even exist. And now I feel old.

WalterGR 8y ago

Sure, by now children can do some rudimentary typing and mouse flicking. But if you think trackpads are awful for adults, you should observe children using them. Tears, people. Two days ago a mathematician was explaining a concept to me that involved math I’ve long forgotten combined with math I’ve never learned. When I told him I didn’t completely follow, he said “It’s super easy,” and repeated what he had already said - but more slowly. Now, there were no tears involved, but anyone who is trying to explain or teach something they’re an expert in/at to someone (of any age) who is very much not would do well to remember the three sentences I’ve quoted above. Tears or no, at any age, it’s incredibly frustrating.

dragonwriter 8y ago

The iPad Mini isn't the only touchscreen tablet in its rough size class; there are plenty that aren't discontinued; Apple isn't the whole tablet world. Plus, to the extent that touch is a desirable interaction for the target age group, many current Chromebooks are touch devices. (Even the tablet-convertible ones, though are not a convenient size for handheld use by a kindergartner, to be sure.)

Markoff 8y ago

i find it fascinating someone it's not ashamed to admit they are extremely lazy and just hand out toddlers tablets to get rid of them, that's like laziest thing you can do - give child a tablet or let them sit in front of TV the kindergarten for my child doesn't even have TV and nobody has problem, the other branch has one TV which they don't really switch on, can't imagine having tablet in kindergarten, that's just pure laziness i let my child watch TV like max. one hour a week as reward after trimming nails, of course pretty much zero time with mobile/tablet, it would be minutes per week when watching over my shoulder at some of our photos/videos or rarely gifs i watch i don't see a reason why should child in kindergarten spend any time in front of screen anywhere, i ruined my eyes by staring at screen, that can't be healthy for children eyes and for many other reasons i would be curious if they use tablets in other European countries or it's just another example of "superior" american education system

kwhitefoot 8y ago

Why the hell does anyone in kindergarten need a computer? They should be out in the playground getting muddy and having fun, riding trikes and soapboxes, climbing trees and building forts.

Markoff 8y ago
gotta keep them getting allergies to feed pharma lobby, so it's better if they are just holding tablets in sterile environment
earenndil 8y ago
I agree-- partly. There are skills kids can start learning in kindergarten that they can use later. Counting, basic arithmetic, the alphabet, simple reading, general conventions that are followed in school. But there is no reason for kindergarteners to be using computers. And I say this as someone who started using the computer at 5 -- I wasn't doing anything remotely interesting on it until at least 9.

shirro 8y ago

My kids started with the ipod touches and then on to the ipad when it came out. They got the mini a few years ago. They had touch screens since they were infants. I am a bit jaded with the technology. The experience is too removed from the real world and they miss out on interactions with both other humans and the surrounding environment to their detriment. We won't be updating their devices and I would make different choices a second time around. I think chromebooks and PCs are even more useless at that age but being less seductive I would hope kids get bored quickly and instead engage in social play or interacting with physical objects.