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I once got cut by a skate playing hockey. Showed up at the hospital pulsing blood from my leg. My first question to them, “Do you take X insurance?” Only after

I once got cut by a skate playing hockey. Showed up at the hospital pulsing blood from my leg. My first question to them, “Do you take X insurance?” Only after they assured me that my insurance would be accepted did I drag my bloody leg into the care room. Turns out the doctor that the hospital assigned to me did _not_ take my insurance. I got billed the full amount, yelled very loudly at lots of people, and when I “resubmitted” the claim ended up paying like $50 out of pocket. I’m pretty sure that every item in the hospital is purchased by a separate company and that the Venn diagram of approved insurance companies never intersects. My dad is a nurse and I grew up hearing how insurance was destroying health care. As a free market libertarian, I have no idea what to do about it. But next time I need stitches I think I’ll just opt for the super glue in my workshop...

RyanCavanaugh 8y ago
It's not a free market if you (literally) can't walk away from the transaction. Trying to apply free market principles to non-free markets is what got us into this mess in the first place.
int_19h 8y ago
> As a free market libertarian, I have no idea what to do about it. As someone who used to be a free market libertarian: take is as a data point, and make appropriate conclusions. Such as: free market doesn't solve every problem. It doesn't mean that we should ditch it - it's still the least invasive way to allocate resources, so it's a reasonable default. But we shouldn't elevate it to dogma. When it works, great! When it doesn't, regulate it. And thus, we can have the best of both worlds.
kjs3 8y ago
> As a free market libertarian, I have no idea what to do about it. The 'free market libertarian' would be thinking 'you're dying, and I can charge anything I want'. That's not a solution.
sneak 8y ago
A good start would have them providing a price list, up front, so you can intelligently request transport to a hospital that doesn’t have a 1000% markup on parts, and reasonable charges on labor.
zaarn 8y ago
Medical emergencies are sadly not a free market. You have a need that the customer (patient) needs to fill with a product (medical care). The problem is, if the customer doesn't get the need fullfilled within the next 10 minutes they die of cardiac arrest. Or worse, the customer is already in cardiac arrest and requires resuscitation. An unconsicous customer can't make market decisions. So now we get to the next stage, a hospital revives/saves the patient but they are unconscious for a few days in the ICU. The patient can hardly walk away while being non-responsive or later when drugged up on painkillers so they don't scream all the time. By the time a patient can leave a hospital without dying the hospital has likely already spent 90% of the money that would be spent if the patient stayed for a few days more to recover. But is it free market to bill the patient for actions taken while they were non-responsive or not even consented too (because they were non-responsive and/or dying)? IMO the answer is simple; free markets don't exist. They are an ideal construct similar to how a bouncy ball should mathematically bounce forever but doesn't. And especially in healthcare there are too many interfering patterns for a free market to actually exist. In other markets, you could make a free market because people could pick and choose and compare and consent (ie, buying logs of wood for your fireplace). But dying people can't participate in the market to not die freely. I also advice against superglue for wounds, the stuff can be toxic and/or nasty and will likely lead to an infection. There are some natural glues that your body produces to stitch wounds and you can obtain them in your supermarket, though they aren't clean enough that I would consider them fit for that use either.
chrisbennet 8y ago
”But next time I need stitches I think I’ll just opt for the super glue in my workshop...” Super glue aka “Dermabond” https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/874047-overview https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/874047-overview

RyanCavanaugh 8y ago

It's not a free market if you (literally) can't walk away from the transaction. Trying to apply free market principles to non-free markets is what got us into this mess in the first place.

int_19h 8y ago

> As a free market libertarian, I have no idea what to do about it. As someone who used to be a free market libertarian: take is as a data point, and make appropriate conclusions. Such as: free market doesn't solve every problem. It doesn't mean that we should ditch it - it's still the least invasive way to allocate resources, so it's a reasonable default. But we shouldn't elevate it to dogma. When it works, great! When it doesn't, regulate it. And thus, we can have the best of both worlds.

kjs3 8y ago

> As a free market libertarian, I have no idea what to do about it. The 'free market libertarian' would be thinking 'you're dying, and I can charge anything I want'. That's not a solution.

sneak 8y ago

A good start would have them providing a price list, up front, so you can intelligently request transport to a hospital that doesn’t have a 1000% markup on parts, and reasonable charges on labor.

zaarn 8y ago

Medical emergencies are sadly not a free market. You have a need that the customer (patient) needs to fill with a product (medical care). The problem is, if the customer doesn't get the need fullfilled within the next 10 minutes they die of cardiac arrest. Or worse, the customer is already in cardiac arrest and requires resuscitation. An unconsicous customer can't make market decisions. So now we get to the next stage, a hospital revives/saves the patient but they are unconscious for a few days in the ICU. The patient can hardly walk away while being non-responsive or later when drugged up on painkillers so they don't scream all the time. By the time a patient can leave a hospital without dying the hospital has likely already spent 90% of the money that would be spent if the patient stayed for a few days more to recover. But is it free market to bill the patient for actions taken while they were non-responsive or not even consented too (because they were non-responsive and/or dying)? IMO the answer is simple; free markets don't exist. They are an ideal construct similar to how a bouncy ball should mathematically bounce forever but doesn't. And especially in healthcare there are too many interfering patterns for a free market to actually exist. In other markets, you could make a free market because people could pick and choose and compare and consent (ie, buying logs of wood for your fireplace). But dying people can't participate in the market to not die freely. I also advice against superglue for wounds, the stuff can be toxic and/or nasty and will likely lead to an infection. There are some natural glues that your body produces to stitch wounds and you can obtain them in your supermarket, though they aren't clean enough that I would consider them fit for that use either.

chrisbennet 8y ago

”But next time I need stitches I think I’ll just opt for the super glue in my workshop...” Super glue aka “Dermabond” https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/874047-overview https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/874047-overview