6 ms·

Yikes this is a complex topic. There’s a couple of things at play: Google does control (unbiased or biased) a significant portion of what internet users see

by Dwolb 8y ago

Yikes this is a complex topic. There’s a couple of things at play: Google does control (unbiased or biased) a significant portion of what internet users see This control has the potential to sway public opinion, direct discourse, and economically make or break businesses (even those that extend beyond media) Personally I believe gigantic internet companies like Google require more regulation because they can’t be trusted to act responsibly indefinitely. However I do not believe the current administration has shown thoughtfulness and care for the republic in a way that I would trust them to enact this regulation.

YinglingLight 8y ago
I do not believe Silicon Valley has shown thoughtfulness and care for the republic in a way that I would trust them to enact this regulation.
- mindcrime 8y ago
  I do not believe Silicon Valley has shown thoughtfulness and care for the republic in a way that I would trust them to enact this regulation. I trust Silicon Valley a hell of a lot more than I trust our government...
  - YinglingLight 8y ago
    One is enacting mass surveillance and censorship programs, and the other one isn't. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/27/google-is-on-the-verge-of-making-a-huge-mistake-with-china/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d504d7f65fa1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/0...
  - chriselles 8y ago
    I would largely agree. Although I find it quite troubling that I often feel like I have to hold my tongue when visiting Silicon Valley when discussion turns to politics. I’m slightly right of center politically but range quite broadly issue by issue, including a couple issue where I Lean to the left. I feel incredibly uncomfortable discussing most anything right of the political center based on common narratives and what I perceive to be the local/cultural group think average. I’m decidedly a non tech founder, but tech conversant. I’m trying to learn more about algorithm fundamentals and design and have been reading an article or two about bias in algorithms. Would there be public service value in auditing/monitoring commercial algorithms? I would never wish to hinder the velocity and quality of commercial innovation, but a few algorithms at a few companies have a massively outsized influential impact on our lives.
  - danjoc 8y ago
    >I trust Silicon Valley a hell of a lot more than I trust our government... The non-poaching agreements make me disagree with you.
    - mindcrime 8y ago
      Fair enough. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I trust either of them very much.
- decacorn 8y ago
  buddy, let me lay down some knowledge for you, since you are obviously oblivious to reality. 1. All US Intelligence organizations unanimously agree RUSSIA cyberattacked our country, targeting the 2016 election via multiple social networks. 2. No laws passed since by GOP-controlled Congress to prevent or EVEN curtail such attacks. 3. White House is ACTIVELY BLOCKING ANY LAW TO PROTECT AMERICAN ELECTIONS from such attacks. Please, look no further than those currently in power in DC. You best believe they are actively destroying our Republic.
michaelmrose 8y ago
The fact that a search engine has such a singular importance in deciding what the public sees. The very reason you would desire regulation is the very reason that you don't want the government regulating it. If google fails its userbase they can switch to a different search engine in 30 seconds by opening a new tab. How fast can you change governments?
- core-questions 8y ago
  > If google fails its userbase If their userbase can actually tell that they are _being_ failed. I don't know that this is deliberate and not just a result of SEO and ranking algorithms, but if what we see is being influenced, how would we know, and how would we generate enough energy to actually have a significant number of people digitally uproot themselves in order to force Google to respond somehow? > they can switch to a different search engine in 30 seconds by opening a new tab. Individual users can switch search engines, but what about switching away from Gmail, Youtube, etc. that are all tied together? It's pretty difficult, especially considering you can't bring your network of viewers/friends/etc with you. > How fast can you change governments? Happens every 4-8 years and takes a few months. Fairly well-oiled process, at this point.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    > Happens every 4-8 years and takes a few months. Fairly well-oiled process, at this point. Last time I recall the candidate that would likely have done well for us was cheated in the primary and then the minority elected a criminal with dementia. Before that we had an authoritarian who at least seemed to want to help the country even at the expense of our rights for 8 years. Before that we had an incompetent drunk for 8 years. Hows that hope and change working for us lately?
    - core-questions 8y ago
      > Last time I recall the candidate that would likely have done well for us was cheated in the primary They tried, but he was victorious in the end, in a triumph of democracy. Wait, who are you talking about?
niyikiza 8y ago
- Google is better than government (you can go for a competitor) and it's better than a decentralized search engine (if anything the swaying of public opinion calls for a closer control of what Google shows people. If Facebook didn't have any censorship policies at all, the incidents of 2016 would have been worse.) - Google never promised you to give you truth all the time (for most of the things people search for there just is no truth). It's meant to direct you to the most "relevant" contents. Everyone will always think that they are more relevant than search engines believe.
- insickness 8y ago
  The question isn't whether Google is 'better' than government, it's whether Google's proprietary algorithm can be trusted to be unbiased. If Google is found to be biased, that doesn't necessarily mean government should step in but at least the market can account for this bias once they know about it. The media has been squawking that Trump is wrong (CNN: "Media says Trump search is rigged. It's not."). Wrong or right, in shedding light on this, Trump has forced Google to be more careful not to bias search results if in fact they were.
  - wtdo 8y ago
    Search is, by definition, biased. A completely unbiased search engine is completely useless to everyone. Some result is going to take that coveted first spot, and several results are going to fill up the coveted first page. In order to narrow down all the results and be useful some bias is going to show up. I don't go to Google (or Bing, or DuckDuckGo, or etc) because I want an unbiased search. Precisely the opposite. I go because I think their bias gives the best results. If Google were unbiased in its search results you would search for tigers and get random results having nothing to do with tigers because maybe that's really the page you wanted and you don't want bias in your search results. Even allowing that every search result has to have the word tiger in it, there's a vast difference between getting the Wikipedia article on tigers vs some random MC Hammer fan-fic that mentions one time that his pants had tiger stripes. An example to drive the point home: Where are my keys? A biased search would look first in the places I think they are most likely to be, and those places will be biased by me according to what I normally do with my keys, where I normally go, where I normally use them, etc. My keys are more likely to be in my pants pocket than, my wife's, and certainly more likely than some stranger's (though there is non-zero percent chance it could be in any of those). But an unbiased search for my keys would say that any place is equally likely. Even reducing it to all places that a human could have traveled to in the time since I last saw them biases the search by supposing that advanced life-forms with faster-than-light travel took my keys to Alpha Centauri overnight. Plenty of people believe this could possibly be the case, and a search for my keys that doesn't take that into account is biased against these people and their beliefs. I agree with your last statement, though. Rightly or wrongly, this may cause Google to change which direction they are biased in. It could also just be an opportunity for others to try different search engines to see which bias they prefer, whereas previously they had never considered it.
jocs_ 8y ago
Google has created ridiculous conditions where there is a massive arms race to be on that first result page on any give subject. The truth is Google results should not exist for anything and everthing. Especially ambiguous subjects. Who does anyone think wins these arms races that are being set up? It is as retarded as having the supreme court pumping out decisions in real time. Why does that not happen? The tech exists. The bench can sit on twitter and keep pumping out their mid process thoughts on anything and everything. Imagine if they did that trying to constantly optimize for more like and follower counts rather than optimizing for outcomes that serve justice. The current architecture to address ambiguity is pure shit. Where people need to be pushed into slow deliberate thinking or where they need to be signaled they have a second graders understanding on a subject, Google is playing a huge role in signalling the opposite. It's doing a whole lot of unintended evil by setting up these arms races around ambiguous issues.
- Fjolsvith 8y ago
  Actually, there is a nice method by which anyone can have their "result" on the first page of a searcher. It's called a bidding war, and it out performs any SEO tweaking out there.
- lotu 8y ago
  Are you literally suggesting that for some of the most important queries that people make Google should just return no results because it is too hard to decide who is on top?
  - fivefive55 8y ago
    I think he was. Honestly the comment doesn't make much sense when you think about it for a second. He seems to think having ready access to information you want to find is a bad thing.
    - Fjolsvith 8y ago
      This sounds like something the Chinese government would espouse.
pizzazzaro 8y ago
I would just like to add some context: Alex Jones is advising Trump about this very topic. https://www.newsy.com/stories/infowars-alex-jones-says-he-s-advising-president-trump/ https://www.newsy.com/stories/infowars-alex-jones-says-he-s-... Relevant: Trump's Razor - the heuristic of discerning the most likely scenario by discerning the stupidest possible option.

by Dwolb 8y ago

YinglingLight 8y ago

I do not believe Silicon Valley has shown thoughtfulness and care for the republic in a way that I would trust them to enact this regulation.

mindcrime 8y ago
I do not believe Silicon Valley has shown thoughtfulness and care for the republic in a way that I would trust them to enact this regulation. I trust Silicon Valley a hell of a lot more than I trust our government...
- YinglingLight 8y ago
  One is enacting mass surveillance and censorship programs, and the other one isn't. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/27/google-is-on-the-verge-of-making-a-huge-mistake-with-china/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d504d7f65fa1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/0...
- chriselles 8y ago
  I would largely agree. Although I find it quite troubling that I often feel like I have to hold my tongue when visiting Silicon Valley when discussion turns to politics. I’m slightly right of center politically but range quite broadly issue by issue, including a couple issue where I Lean to the left. I feel incredibly uncomfortable discussing most anything right of the political center based on common narratives and what I perceive to be the local/cultural group think average. I’m decidedly a non tech founder, but tech conversant. I’m trying to learn more about algorithm fundamentals and design and have been reading an article or two about bias in algorithms. Would there be public service value in auditing/monitoring commercial algorithms? I would never wish to hinder the velocity and quality of commercial innovation, but a few algorithms at a few companies have a massively outsized influential impact on our lives.
- danjoc 8y ago
  >I trust Silicon Valley a hell of a lot more than I trust our government... The non-poaching agreements make me disagree with you.
  - mindcrime 8y ago
    Fair enough. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I trust either of them very much.
decacorn 8y ago
buddy, let me lay down some knowledge for you, since you are obviously oblivious to reality. 1. All US Intelligence organizations unanimously agree RUSSIA cyberattacked our country, targeting the 2016 election via multiple social networks. 2. No laws passed since by GOP-controlled Congress to prevent or EVEN curtail such attacks. 3. White House is ACTIVELY BLOCKING ANY LAW TO PROTECT AMERICAN ELECTIONS from such attacks. Please, look no further than those currently in power in DC. You best believe they are actively destroying our Republic.

michaelmrose 8y ago

The fact that a search engine has such a singular importance in deciding what the public sees. The very reason you would desire regulation is the very reason that you don't want the government regulating it. If google fails its userbase they can switch to a different search engine in 30 seconds by opening a new tab. How fast can you change governments?

core-questions 8y ago
> If google fails its userbase If their userbase can actually tell that they are _being_ failed. I don't know that this is deliberate and not just a result of SEO and ranking algorithms, but if what we see is being influenced, how would we know, and how would we generate enough energy to actually have a significant number of people digitally uproot themselves in order to force Google to respond somehow? > they can switch to a different search engine in 30 seconds by opening a new tab. Individual users can switch search engines, but what about switching away from Gmail, Youtube, etc. that are all tied together? It's pretty difficult, especially considering you can't bring your network of viewers/friends/etc with you. > How fast can you change governments? Happens every 4-8 years and takes a few months. Fairly well-oiled process, at this point.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  > Happens every 4-8 years and takes a few months. Fairly well-oiled process, at this point. Last time I recall the candidate that would likely have done well for us was cheated in the primary and then the minority elected a criminal with dementia. Before that we had an authoritarian who at least seemed to want to help the country even at the expense of our rights for 8 years. Before that we had an incompetent drunk for 8 years. Hows that hope and change working for us lately?
  - core-questions 8y ago
    > Last time I recall the candidate that would likely have done well for us was cheated in the primary They tried, but he was victorious in the end, in a triumph of democracy. Wait, who are you talking about?

niyikiza 8y ago

- Google is better than government (you can go for a competitor) and it's better than a decentralized search engine (if anything the swaying of public opinion calls for a closer control of what Google shows people. If Facebook didn't have any censorship policies at all, the incidents of 2016 would have been worse.) - Google never promised you to give you truth all the time (for most of the things people search for there just is no truth). It's meant to direct you to the most "relevant" contents. Everyone will always think that they are more relevant than search engines believe.

insickness 8y ago
The question isn't whether Google is 'better' than government, it's whether Google's proprietary algorithm can be trusted to be unbiased. If Google is found to be biased, that doesn't necessarily mean government should step in but at least the market can account for this bias once they know about it. The media has been squawking that Trump is wrong (CNN: "Media says Trump search is rigged. It's not."). Wrong or right, in shedding light on this, Trump has forced Google to be more careful not to bias search results if in fact they were.
- wtdo 8y ago
  Search is, by definition, biased. A completely unbiased search engine is completely useless to everyone. Some result is going to take that coveted first spot, and several results are going to fill up the coveted first page. In order to narrow down all the results and be useful some bias is going to show up. I don't go to Google (or Bing, or DuckDuckGo, or etc) because I want an unbiased search. Precisely the opposite. I go because I think their bias gives the best results. If Google were unbiased in its search results you would search for tigers and get random results having nothing to do with tigers because maybe that's really the page you wanted and you don't want bias in your search results. Even allowing that every search result has to have the word tiger in it, there's a vast difference between getting the Wikipedia article on tigers vs some random MC Hammer fan-fic that mentions one time that his pants had tiger stripes. An example to drive the point home: Where are my keys? A biased search would look first in the places I think they are most likely to be, and those places will be biased by me according to what I normally do with my keys, where I normally go, where I normally use them, etc. My keys are more likely to be in my pants pocket than, my wife's, and certainly more likely than some stranger's (though there is non-zero percent chance it could be in any of those). But an unbiased search for my keys would say that any place is equally likely. Even reducing it to all places that a human could have traveled to in the time since I last saw them biases the search by supposing that advanced life-forms with faster-than-light travel took my keys to Alpha Centauri overnight. Plenty of people believe this could possibly be the case, and a search for my keys that doesn't take that into account is biased against these people and their beliefs. I agree with your last statement, though. Rightly or wrongly, this may cause Google to change which direction they are biased in. It could also just be an opportunity for others to try different search engines to see which bias they prefer, whereas previously they had never considered it.

jocs_ 8y ago

Google has created ridiculous conditions where there is a massive arms race to be on that first result page on any give subject. The truth is Google results should not exist for anything and everthing. Especially ambiguous subjects. Who does anyone think wins these arms races that are being set up? It is as retarded as having the supreme court pumping out decisions in real time. Why does that not happen? The tech exists. The bench can sit on twitter and keep pumping out their mid process thoughts on anything and everything. Imagine if they did that trying to constantly optimize for more like and follower counts rather than optimizing for outcomes that serve justice. The current architecture to address ambiguity is pure shit. Where people need to be pushed into slow deliberate thinking or where they need to be signaled they have a second graders understanding on a subject, Google is playing a huge role in signalling the opposite. It's doing a whole lot of unintended evil by setting up these arms races around ambiguous issues.

Fjolsvith 8y ago
Actually, there is a nice method by which anyone can have their "result" on the first page of a searcher. It's called a bidding war, and it out performs any SEO tweaking out there.
lotu 8y ago
Are you literally suggesting that for some of the most important queries that people make Google should just return no results because it is too hard to decide who is on top?
- fivefive55 8y ago
  I think he was. Honestly the comment doesn't make much sense when you think about it for a second. He seems to think having ready access to information you want to find is a bad thing.
  - Fjolsvith 8y ago
    This sounds like something the Chinese government would espouse.

pizzazzaro 8y ago

I would just like to add some context: Alex Jones is advising Trump about this very topic. https://www.newsy.com/stories/infowars-alex-jones-says-he-s-advising-president-trump/ https://www.newsy.com/stories/infowars-alex-jones-says-he-s-... Relevant: Trump's Razor - the heuristic of discerning the most likely scenario by discerning the stupidest possible option.