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It's one thing to try and keep the group small to create a better, more comfortable experience for everyone, but denigrating anyone who doesn't present as "leec

by samd 16y ago

It's one thing to try and keep the group small to create a better, more comfortable experience for everyone, but denigrating anyone who doesn't present as "leechers" and keeping them out to maintain the purity of your group is disgustingly elitist. Your entire calculus is short-sighted and elitist; you are treating people as nothing but tools to advance your agenda. If they don't contribute something to you or your group you don't want them. What kind of community is that? Certainly not one that I'd want to be a part of, and certainly not one that has any hope of "preserving hacking and invention" as Zed Shaw described. First off, stop being so selfish and stop dividing people into those who can do something for you and those who can't. Secondly, if you want to foster a sustainable community you have to share, teach, and give to others. Who knows, those people might even grow into the knowledgeable, well-connected hackers that you so desire. I apologize if I've completely misinterpreted your article, but after re-reading it a few times and thinking about it I still get the same impression.

RickHull 16y ago
Look, the bar is set pretty low. Just work on something (for fun!), and give a show-and-tell. That's the prospective minimum.
- andreyf 16y ago
  I think samd's offense was taken at the attitude more than the technical requirements. New York has a very interesting class dynamic about it: the social circles are just inundated with people who want to be successful (whatever that means to them) more than other places. In my opinion, this is the greatest reason we won't see "Homebrew Computer Club" style hacking, and Woz didn't hang around hacker news. I wonder if that's what drives PG's guilt of creating this place...
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Robin_Message 16y ago
It's just the standard 8th rule: If this is your first night at FIGHT CLUB, you HAVE to fight. Requiring participation in a community is not elitist; it is what makes it a community. Otherwise, you just have some vaguely related people coming together, some of whom are leeching. By requiring everyone invest in the community you create a shared bond and a shared ownership. It's not saying it's an elite club only for special people; but it is saying you have to make a minimal first step of your own before you can enter. It's the same as building a monastery or dojo high up a mountain -- partly for the peace and quiet, but also partly to make it hard to enter -- those who turn up have demonstrated some commitment. In terms of motivation and teaching others, I'm imagining a fun club that I can't go to unless I get on with doing some actual hacking....motivation to load Vim in 3..2..1!
- Robin_Message 16y ago
  Also from Fight Club (which, if you think about it, addresses exactly this question -- making a difference to the world instead of just passively consuming,) is the scene where Tyler holds up a convenience store. Tyler drags an Asian convenience store clerk out behind the store, ostensibly to shoot him. Instead, he badgers the poor clerk into distilling things: that he never wanted this job; in fact, he's just making time as a clerk, and he was at one point in school -- he had a passion to become a veterinarian. Tyler opts not to shoot him and leaves him instead with the message: You're the living dead now. Go back to school and make your life mean something, or I’ll kick you into the grave for real. Getting people to contribute something, before they can belong, is powerful.
andreyf 16y ago
You must not be from New York...
apgwoz 16y ago
I don't mind the group getting bigger--that means a larger pool of projects, and a larger variety of presenters. But, if I only have space for 50 people, and 50 "leechers" RSVP before I have 7 presenters, that's a problem. Sure, they could be there because they are curious and, like I mentioned, even be contributors in some way (maybe they brought 4 of their friends from their CS program or something), but at that point we don't have a show. Maybe the term "leecher" isn't a good fit for what I'm talking about, but that's the basic problem. We ultimately need some percentage of people willing to present that have interesting projects, or the group can't survive.

by samd 16y ago

RickHull 16y ago

Look, the bar is set pretty low. Just work on something (for fun!), and give a show-and-tell. That's the prospective minimum.

andreyf 16y ago
I think samd's offense was taken at the attitude more than the technical requirements. New York has a very interesting class dynamic about it: the social circles are just inundated with people who want to be successful (whatever that means to them) more than other places. In my opinion, this is the greatest reason we won't see "Homebrew Computer Club" style hacking, and Woz didn't hang around hacker news. I wonder if that's what drives PG's guilt of creating this place...

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Robin_Message 16y ago

It's just the standard 8th rule: If this is your first night at FIGHT CLUB, you HAVE to fight. Requiring participation in a community is not elitist; it is what makes it a community. Otherwise, you just have some vaguely related people coming together, some of whom are leeching. By requiring everyone invest in the community you create a shared bond and a shared ownership. It's not saying it's an elite club only for special people; but it is saying you have to make a minimal first step of your own before you can enter. It's the same as building a monastery or dojo high up a mountain -- partly for the peace and quiet, but also partly to make it hard to enter -- those who turn up have demonstrated some commitment. In terms of motivation and teaching others, I'm imagining a fun club that I can't go to unless I get on with doing some actual hacking....motivation to load Vim in 3..2..1!

Robin_Message 16y ago
Also from Fight Club (which, if you think about it, addresses exactly this question -- making a difference to the world instead of just passively consuming,) is the scene where Tyler holds up a convenience store. Tyler drags an Asian convenience store clerk out behind the store, ostensibly to shoot him. Instead, he badgers the poor clerk into distilling things: that he never wanted this job; in fact, he's just making time as a clerk, and he was at one point in school -- he had a passion to become a veterinarian. Tyler opts not to shoot him and leaves him instead with the message: You're the living dead now. Go back to school and make your life mean something, or I’ll kick you into the grave for real. Getting people to contribute something, before they can belong, is powerful.

andreyf 16y ago

You must not be from New York...

apgwoz 16y ago

I don't mind the group getting bigger--that means a larger pool of projects, and a larger variety of presenters. But, if I only have space for 50 people, and 50 "leechers" RSVP before I have 7 presenters, that's a problem. Sure, they could be there because they are curious and, like I mentioned, even be contributors in some way (maybe they brought 4 of their friends from their CS program or something), but at that point we don't have a show. Maybe the term "leecher" isn't a good fit for what I'm talking about, but that's the basic problem. We ultimately need some percentage of people willing to present that have interesting projects, or the group can't survive.