7 ms·

Dear Venmo: Update Your Privacy Settings

78 points by Ours90 8y ago

bogomipz 8y ago
What is the business case for their making transactions public? Venmo can still mine and sell user data without it being public. I believe they can also use the FB social graph api without transactions being public as well. Am I missing something obvious?
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  Yes The only public thing in venmo is the note you attach. You choose whether to publish it. It can contain anything you want. It doesnt have a dollar amount attached. A significant chunk of the population finds this fun.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    I see so it provides "engagement value." But if I send you money we could both read that attached message without the entire internet having access to it. Or do I have this wrong and the the fun is really in reading strangers transaction messages? If the majority of people are unaware that these messages are public wouldn't this mean that the "significant chunk" are a minority of Venmo's total users?
ilikehurdles 8y ago
I have never posted publicly to Venmo and I don’t understand why this would be a feature anyone, anywhere actually wants. Who I give how much money to for what reason isn’t anyone’s business but mine and the IRS’s. Maybe I’m not in tune with the kids these days but the public stream seems to exist only for people to mistakenly post to without realizing everyone can see their transactions.
- mediumdeviation 8y ago
  It was designed for Venmo to prove to new users that the app has a large network and was trustworthy > Yeah, absolutely, so one of the biggest purposes of the social feed when Venmo first launched was around this concept of social proof. So if you think about a product like Venmo, it’s really only useful to you if people that you want to transact with are also using Venmo. So when Venmo launched, we had two feeds, we had the public feed and the friend feed. And immediately when a new user signed up for Venmo, you could see in the public feed that Venmo was something other people were using. From a Venmo product lead - https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/14/16643192/venmo-stalking-whyd-you-push-that-button-podcast https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/14/16643192/venmo-stalking-...
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Good find, thanks for sharing that. So it's classic case of the business deciding they had a use case that took precedence over their users' interests. I feel pretty confident that they could have come up with a better solution if they had considered the privacy aspect at all. One really simple, basic step might be not exposing the exact datetime when the transaction was made. Not linking both parties to the transaction in one display would be another choice that would still serve the purpose of demonstrating volume.
- quater 8y ago
  I doubt anyone wants their transactions to be public, even younger people (many of which are knowledgeable about privacy nowadays). I think this is more of an oversight by Venmo and this post is telling them to pick up their act and change the default visibility to private.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    even younger people (many of which are knowledgeable about privacy nowadays) How young are you talking? My peers in their 20s have the same attitude towards Internet privacy as towards factory farming and abusive labor practices at clothing manufacturers: " I know I should care, but it doesn't affect me right now so I will worry about caring later"
- bepotts 8y ago
  I use Venmo weekly and my group of friends love that feature. It's a sort of "social network" feature. It might not be for everyone, but there's plenty of people that are aware of the feature and aren't bothered by it.
  - moate 8y ago
    Earnest question: Why do you love it? What about seeing people transact money do you love? Like I get that this is another place to use cheeky emojis (Steve bought some weed and gave his dealer a tree emoji! Classic Steve!) but just...why?
    - bepotts 8y ago
      I don't love the feature, although I do sometimes look through my friends' transactions. I guess it's similar to sharing a photo on Facebook, or doing a "check in" when you're at a location: it's simply about broadcasting who you were with and what you guys were either doing or bought. Most transactions between parties are simply "drinks", pizza emojis, or "rent" to a roommate. It's about showing who you are, what you do, and who you're with.
      - moate 8y ago
        shrug IDK, it seems like I have tons of ways to do that already if I'm so inclined and have never wanted it as part of my financial transactions. I've never understood the appeal personally, but I also don't understand the appeal of high-heeled shoes or cliff diving.
  - pbreit 8y ago
    Are you saying you like seeing just your friends’ payments (understandable) or everyone’s including strangers (the problem)?
    - bepotts 8y ago
      I don't care either way about seeing payments; I'm just saying that plenty of young people (including my group of friends) don't see this is some massive privacy violation. Instead, it's a cool social feature.
- pbreit 8y ago
  Except that it is quite possibly _the_ feature that made Venmo successful where others failed. It provided invaluable cues on what to use it for and that “everyone” was using it.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    It's possible. I used venmo because it had a super-duper-simple sign-up, worked with credit cards, had low fees, and my friends were already asking for money that way. All I care about is my own transactions. I go to instagram to see nice pictures sometimes and contact friends and family. I never, ever go to venmo to see how people are spending money.
    - pbreit 8y ago
      You have to think a little more deeply at how some apps break through while the vast majority fail. I can't prove my assertion except to point out the info sharing was a key difference between Venmo and all the rest and I can see how it would contribute to Venmo's success.
maaaats 8y ago
Publicly show the data on the CTO's, CFO's, board members' etc use of Venmo. That should prompt some haste.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  cue the addition of opt-out settings, and Venmo representatives immediately opting out of the public feed.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    You can opt out, the first thing I did when I installed the app was notice that people's transactions were public and hunt down the setting that made mine private.
  - awakeasleep 8y ago
    Venmo always had opt out settings and the management of Venmo and paypal proudly share a lot of their payments
csours 8y ago
Idea Man: Hey boss, I have an idea for a new personal payment app. Boss: So what, those are a dime a dozen. Idea Man: Yea boss, but this one has THE SOCIAL! Boss: OOOH, we need THE SOCIAL! --- How I imagine the pitch for Venmo went.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  It's funny because the real draw to Venmo is that it's the easiest payment app to use, transfers to your banker quick and painless, and you only need a phone number to sign up. It's just that people didn't even realize this was a problem they need to solve in an age of PayPal and credit cards.
  - r3bl 8y ago
    It is a problem that has yet to be solved. Venmo only solved it within the United States, as it is only available there.
  - coherentpony 8y ago
    Venmo _is_ paypal. They are the same company. That's what makes this so confusing.
    - nerdponx 8y ago
      They weren't always Paypal though, right?
      - sgift 8y ago
        You are right. They were first acquired by Braintree which later was acquired by Paypal.
    - the_watcher 8y ago
      Paypal bought Venmo after Venmo highlighted how far behind it was in usability and popularity in the younger generations.
  - 8y ago
cddotdotslash 8y ago
Next to every transaction is a drop down menu. That menu allows you to select "Private." This doesn't seem like something Mozilla needs to involve themselves in, especially with all the privacy snafus of their own.
wruza 8y ago
A couple of decades ago I could not even imagine that in around 2020 people will create a petition for a default setting. Still looking for a better name for this phenomena, since what I have in mind seems too offensive.
- lukas099 8y ago
  Libertarian paternalism
eahman16 8y ago
Mozilla should make all of their Firefox telemetry, Pocket ads and sponsored content, sponsored Mr. Robot addons that automatically install, Cliqz spyware, etc. opt-in before they talk about the defaults of other companies. Mozilla have no shame.
- jwfxpr 8y ago
  You're succumbing to the allure of what-aboutism here. Yes, granted, Mozilla aren't perfect and have made some significant missteps (not all of which they've suitably amended), and deserve criticism for them. But just because they're vulnerable to criticism doesn't invalidate what they're saying here, and doesn't make another entity who regularly handles more sensitive data in less private ways less vulnerable to criticism. Should this message be coming from another source? Yes, but 'as well as', not 'instead of'. Is it good for user advocacy that a highly recognised source is promoting this message, even if the source is flawed? Yes, it is.
  - eahman16 8y ago
    You missed my point. To me, Mozilla is not a highly recognised source. They are politically aligned, they don't respect the privacy of their users, and what's even worse: they say they do and herald themselves as the saviours of the free web and privacy and blah blah, while they stab their users in the back. Mozilla is not only a "flawed source": they either don't know what privacy is, or they are simply malicious. They have no authority to tell me how to defend my privacy or to tell other corporations how to act.
    - eerwrq 8y ago
      No, they didn't miss your point. You missed their point. You're not criticizing the message, you're criticizing the messenger. Maybe Mozilla shouldn't be the one saying this. But are they wrong about Venmo?
      - eahman16 8y ago
        Yes, I'm criticising the messenger. I didn't imply I was criticising the message in any of my posts. I personally don't care because I don't use Venmo. I just thought it was hilarious, if not infuriating, for Mozilla to say anything about user privacy.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
magikbum 8y ago
Relevant parody video - Venmo CEO: We’re Fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFLztKBrLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFLztKBrLY
- bogomipz 8y ago
  "What if you could comment on a work colleague's electricity bill?" This was laugh out funny. Thank you for posting this. Cheers.
PKop 8y ago
This kind of useless feature set is why Cash App is starting to eclipse Venmo in usage. [0] It's why I originally started using CA... simple interface, no useless social feature. Just send money, boom. Now they've added Bitcoin purchases (the easiest and quickest way to buy and send to hardware wallet) and Boosts which (inexplicably) give you huge discounts like $1 off every coffee you purchase at a coffee shop. [1] No brainer to use CA over alternatives. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/16/nomura-instinet-square-cash-app-is-growing-faster-than-venmo.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/16/nomura-instinet-square-cash-... [1] https://www.cultofmac.com/532069/square-cash-coffee-reward-program/ https://www.cultofmac.com/532069/square-cash-coffee-reward-p...
kerng 8y ago
I have not used Venmo. Can someone explain the user experience around this? Does it happen just by doing a transaction or is it like posting something on social media with an audience dropdown box or something?
- saurik 8y ago
  It happens just by doing a transaction unless you set the transaction to friends only or private. (I do think that the setting "sticks" for later transactions, but am not 100% sure.)
- eshyong 8y ago
  There's an activity feed, just like Facebook. Whenever you pay someone on Venmo the app will make a public post on your behalf, and any of your friends can see all of your purchases on the feed ("Bottomless mimosas", "Sushi with Jessica", etc). Also important to note that your transactions are "public" by default, which means everyone can see them, not just friends that you've added.
  - wruza 8y ago
    Do users really fill comment field? Why? Does it have embedded accounting module or people knowingly collect and share their payments? If it is accounting, then why free text and not categories? I use local similar app and all transactions go with no comment, from everyone, since there is no point to make such comments (and they’re private).
johlind2 8y ago
People want to, and choose to, broadcast what they are doing and who they are doing it with. This shouldn't be news to people. Why do people have public Instagram and Twitter accounts? Some will see no appeal and are turned off by the thought of this, but for others it's their way of life. So instead of criticizing the app, maybe what you really want to do is criticize the people using the app? Lastly, clicking "private" on a post is dead simple; the company shouldn't be forced to change the default setting that differentiates them because somebody can't figure that out. Come on.
- debaserab2 8y ago
  People make Instagram and Twitter accounts for the very purpose of sharing things socially. I don't know of anyone who uses Venmo specifically because they want to post their monetary transactions publicly. The fraction of my friends that still have their post visibility set to public either are unaware, or have a laissez-faire attitude about it. None of them "want to broadcast" their monetary transactions. We all use venmo because it has ubiquity in our friend groups/social networks.
gowld 8y ago
see also: http://www.vicemo.com/ http://www.vicemo.com/
etherworks 8y ago
Public By Default is an amazing investigation into one year of Venmo data available on the public API http://publicbydefault.fyi/ http://publicbydefault.fyi/

78 points by Ours90 8y ago

What is the business case for their making transactions public? Venmo can still mine and sell user data without it being public. I believe they can also use the FB social graph api without transactions being public as well. Am I missing something obvious?

awakeasleep 8y ago
Yes The only public thing in venmo is the note you attach. You choose whether to publish it. It can contain anything you want. It doesnt have a dollar amount attached. A significant chunk of the population finds this fun.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  I see so it provides "engagement value." But if I send you money we could both read that attached message without the entire internet having access to it. Or do I have this wrong and the the fun is really in reading strangers transaction messages? If the majority of people are unaware that these messages are public wouldn't this mean that the "significant chunk" are a minority of Venmo's total users?

ilikehurdles 8y ago

I have never posted publicly to Venmo and I don’t understand why this would be a feature anyone, anywhere actually wants. Who I give how much money to for what reason isn’t anyone’s business but mine and the IRS’s. Maybe I’m not in tune with the kids these days but the public stream seems to exist only for people to mistakenly post to without realizing everyone can see their transactions.

mediumdeviation 8y ago
It was designed for Venmo to prove to new users that the app has a large network and was trustworthy > Yeah, absolutely, so one of the biggest purposes of the social feed when Venmo first launched was around this concept of social proof. So if you think about a product like Venmo, it’s really only useful to you if people that you want to transact with are also using Venmo. So when Venmo launched, we had two feeds, we had the public feed and the friend feed. And immediately when a new user signed up for Venmo, you could see in the public feed that Venmo was something other people were using. From a Venmo product lead - https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/14/16643192/venmo-stalking-whyd-you-push-that-button-podcast https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/14/16643192/venmo-stalking-...
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Good find, thanks for sharing that. So it's classic case of the business deciding they had a use case that took precedence over their users' interests. I feel pretty confident that they could have come up with a better solution if they had considered the privacy aspect at all. One really simple, basic step might be not exposing the exact datetime when the transaction was made. Not linking both parties to the transaction in one display would be another choice that would still serve the purpose of demonstrating volume.
quater 8y ago
I doubt anyone wants their transactions to be public, even younger people (many of which are knowledgeable about privacy nowadays). I think this is more of an oversight by Venmo and this post is telling them to pick up their act and change the default visibility to private.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  even younger people (many of which are knowledgeable about privacy nowadays) How young are you talking? My peers in their 20s have the same attitude towards Internet privacy as towards factory farming and abusive labor practices at clothing manufacturers: " I know I should care, but it doesn't affect me right now so I will worry about caring later"
bepotts 8y ago
I use Venmo weekly and my group of friends love that feature. It's a sort of "social network" feature. It might not be for everyone, but there's plenty of people that are aware of the feature and aren't bothered by it.
- moate 8y ago
  Earnest question: Why do you love it? What about seeing people transact money do you love? Like I get that this is another place to use cheeky emojis (Steve bought some weed and gave his dealer a tree emoji! Classic Steve!) but just...why?
  - bepotts 8y ago
    I don't love the feature, although I do sometimes look through my friends' transactions. I guess it's similar to sharing a photo on Facebook, or doing a "check in" when you're at a location: it's simply about broadcasting who you were with and what you guys were either doing or bought. Most transactions between parties are simply "drinks", pizza emojis, or "rent" to a roommate. It's about showing who you are, what you do, and who you're with.
    - moate 8y ago
      shrug IDK, it seems like I have tons of ways to do that already if I'm so inclined and have never wanted it as part of my financial transactions. I've never understood the appeal personally, but I also don't understand the appeal of high-heeled shoes or cliff diving.
- pbreit 8y ago
  Are you saying you like seeing just your friends’ payments (understandable) or everyone’s including strangers (the problem)?
  - bepotts 8y ago
    I don't care either way about seeing payments; I'm just saying that plenty of young people (including my group of friends) don't see this is some massive privacy violation. Instead, it's a cool social feature.
pbreit 8y ago
Except that it is quite possibly _the_ feature that made Venmo successful where others failed. It provided invaluable cues on what to use it for and that “everyone” was using it.
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  It's possible. I used venmo because it had a super-duper-simple sign-up, worked with credit cards, had low fees, and my friends were already asking for money that way. All I care about is my own transactions. I go to instagram to see nice pictures sometimes and contact friends and family. I never, ever go to venmo to see how people are spending money.
  - pbreit 8y ago
    You have to think a little more deeply at how some apps break through while the vast majority fail. I can't prove my assertion except to point out the info sharing was a key difference between Venmo and all the rest and I can see how it would contribute to Venmo's success.

maaaats 8y ago

Publicly show the data on the CTO's, CFO's, board members' etc use of Venmo. That should prompt some haste.

beaconstudios 8y ago
cue the addition of opt-out settings, and Venmo representatives immediately opting out of the public feed.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  You can opt out, the first thing I did when I installed the app was notice that people's transactions were public and hunt down the setting that made mine private.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  Venmo always had opt out settings and the management of Venmo and paypal proudly share a lot of their payments

csours 8y ago

Idea Man: Hey boss, I have an idea for a new personal payment app. Boss: So what, those are a dime a dozen. Idea Man: Yea boss, but this one has THE SOCIAL! Boss: OOOH, we need THE SOCIAL! --- How I imagine the pitch for Venmo went.

nerdponx 8y ago
It's funny because the real draw to Venmo is that it's the easiest payment app to use, transfers to your banker quick and painless, and you only need a phone number to sign up. It's just that people didn't even realize this was a problem they need to solve in an age of PayPal and credit cards.
- r3bl 8y ago
  It is a problem that has yet to be solved. Venmo only solved it within the United States, as it is only available there.
- coherentpony 8y ago
  Venmo _is_ paypal. They are the same company. That's what makes this so confusing.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    They weren't always Paypal though, right?
    - sgift 8y ago
      You are right. They were first acquired by Braintree which later was acquired by Paypal.
  - the_watcher 8y ago
    Paypal bought Venmo after Venmo highlighted how far behind it was in usability and popularity in the younger generations.
- 8y ago

cddotdotslash 8y ago

Next to every transaction is a drop down menu. That menu allows you to select "Private." This doesn't seem like something Mozilla needs to involve themselves in, especially with all the privacy snafus of their own.

wruza 8y ago

A couple of decades ago I could not even imagine that in around 2020 people will create a petition for a default setting. Still looking for a better name for this phenomena, since what I have in mind seems too offensive.

lukas099 8y ago
Libertarian paternalism

eahman16 8y ago

Mozilla should make all of their Firefox telemetry, Pocket ads and sponsored content, sponsored Mr. Robot addons that automatically install, Cliqz spyware, etc. opt-in before they talk about the defaults of other companies. Mozilla have no shame.

jwfxpr 8y ago
You're succumbing to the allure of what-aboutism here. Yes, granted, Mozilla aren't perfect and have made some significant missteps (not all of which they've suitably amended), and deserve criticism for them. But just because they're vulnerable to criticism doesn't invalidate what they're saying here, and doesn't make another entity who regularly handles more sensitive data in less private ways less vulnerable to criticism. Should this message be coming from another source? Yes, but 'as well as', not 'instead of'. Is it good for user advocacy that a highly recognised source is promoting this message, even if the source is flawed? Yes, it is.
- eahman16 8y ago
  You missed my point. To me, Mozilla is not a highly recognised source. They are politically aligned, they don't respect the privacy of their users, and what's even worse: they say they do and herald themselves as the saviours of the free web and privacy and blah blah, while they stab their users in the back. Mozilla is not only a "flawed source": they either don't know what privacy is, or they are simply malicious. They have no authority to tell me how to defend my privacy or to tell other corporations how to act.
  - eerwrq 8y ago
    No, they didn't miss your point. You missed their point. You're not criticizing the message, you're criticizing the messenger. Maybe Mozilla shouldn't be the one saying this. But are they wrong about Venmo?
    - eahman16 8y ago
      Yes, I'm criticising the messenger. I didn't imply I was criticising the message in any of my posts. I personally don't care because I don't use Venmo. I just thought it was hilarious, if not infuriating, for Mozilla to say anything about user privacy.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

magikbum 8y ago

Relevant parody video - Venmo CEO: We’re Fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFLztKBrLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFLztKBrLY

bogomipz 8y ago
"What if you could comment on a work colleague's electricity bill?" This was laugh out funny. Thank you for posting this. Cheers.

PKop 8y ago

This kind of useless feature set is why Cash App is starting to eclipse Venmo in usage. [0] It's why I originally started using CA... simple interface, no useless social feature. Just send money, boom. Now they've added Bitcoin purchases (the easiest and quickest way to buy and send to hardware wallet) and Boosts which (inexplicably) give you huge discounts like $1 off every coffee you purchase at a coffee shop. [1] No brainer to use CA over alternatives. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/16/nomura-instinet-square-cash-app-is-growing-faster-than-venmo.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/16/nomura-instinet-square-cash-... [1] https://www.cultofmac.com/532069/square-cash-coffee-reward-program/ https://www.cultofmac.com/532069/square-cash-coffee-reward-p...

kerng 8y ago

I have not used Venmo. Can someone explain the user experience around this? Does it happen just by doing a transaction or is it like posting something on social media with an audience dropdown box or something?

saurik 8y ago
It happens just by doing a transaction unless you set the transaction to friends only or private. (I do think that the setting "sticks" for later transactions, but am not 100% sure.)
eshyong 8y ago
There's an activity feed, just like Facebook. Whenever you pay someone on Venmo the app will make a public post on your behalf, and any of your friends can see all of your purchases on the feed ("Bottomless mimosas", "Sushi with Jessica", etc). Also important to note that your transactions are "public" by default, which means everyone can see them, not just friends that you've added.
- wruza 8y ago
  Do users really fill comment field? Why? Does it have embedded accounting module or people knowingly collect and share their payments? If it is accounting, then why free text and not categories? I use local similar app and all transactions go with no comment, from everyone, since there is no point to make such comments (and they’re private).

johlind2 8y ago

People want to, and choose to, broadcast what they are doing and who they are doing it with. This shouldn't be news to people. Why do people have public Instagram and Twitter accounts? Some will see no appeal and are turned off by the thought of this, but for others it's their way of life. So instead of criticizing the app, maybe what you really want to do is criticize the people using the app? Lastly, clicking "private" on a post is dead simple; the company shouldn't be forced to change the default setting that differentiates them because somebody can't figure that out. Come on.

debaserab2 8y ago
People make Instagram and Twitter accounts for the very purpose of sharing things socially. I don't know of anyone who uses Venmo specifically because they want to post their monetary transactions publicly. The fraction of my friends that still have their post visibility set to public either are unaware, or have a laissez-faire attitude about it. None of them "want to broadcast" their monetary transactions. We all use venmo because it has ubiquity in our friend groups/social networks.

gowld 8y ago

see also: http://www.vicemo.com/ http://www.vicemo.com/

etherworks 8y ago

Public By Default is an amazing investigation into one year of Venmo data available on the public API http://publicbydefault.fyi/ http://publicbydefault.fyi/