6 ms·

It is even worse in Europe where you are often required to have Master's degree before you can even start a PhD. People in my country usually start PhD. at 25

by Scea91 8y ago

It is even worse in Europe where you are often required to have Master's degree before you can even start a PhD. People in my country usually start PhD. at 25 and take at least 6 years to finish, because the universities use them as cheap workforce and aren't incentivised to allow students graduate quickly.

jcelerier 8y ago
> People in my country usually start PhD. at 25 and take at least 6 years to finish, uh ? which country are you in ? In france like you said you have to do a master before BUT a phd is only 3 years. I'm 26 and I finished my phd - had my defense earlier this year when I was still 25.
- Scea91 8y ago
  To be fair, my university also advertises PhD. as a 3 year program. Yet the median time at my department is over 6 years. It was wrong from me to generalise to whole Europe. I didn't want to be too specific in my comment. On the other hand, the upside is that we do not have to pay a single dollar for education here as opposed to US.
MandieD 8y ago
My husband is a German who did a Mech E PhD, and indeed was 31 when he finished, despite going through the pipeline completely on schedule. Back then, German students finished high school (Gymnasium) at 19, then did a Diplom (think combination bachelors/masters) which took 5 years. In his particular institute, the better you were, the LONGER it often took because the professors found stuff they wanted you to help with unless you were really good at boundaries. My husband took 7 years; a very kind, very bright friend of his needed 8.5.
AlunAlun 8y ago
This used to be the situation in Europe but it got out of hand, as a result all new PhDs in Europe must be advertised as three year programs, and completed in four at a maximum.
- Scea91 8y ago
  Students apply for extension after four years. The only difference is that after 4 years you no longer receive the PhD. stipend and have to be paid from project grants. This might further reduce your income or force you to work even more on projects related only tangentially to your thesis.
- collyw 8y ago
  I have worked in a few academic institutes (and still know many friends in the same places). 5 years seems to be the norm, with some people taking up to 7.
  - AlunAlun 8y ago
    I am university lecturer, and the rules have been tightened dramatically in the last few years, precisely to prevent 7 or 8 year-long PhDs, which were indeed getting increasingly common, and benefited nobody. Now, students must submit their thesis within five years (one of my students very nearly failed his PhD because of this), and there are funding restrictions for continuing beyond three.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
    I didn't know this was a Europe-wide rule, but as a professor in Spain I can attest that the 3 years + 1 year extension rule is now enforced and met. If your time elapses and you haven't completed your thesis, you're out.
    - collyw 8y ago
      I am in Spain. Maybe it has changed but a few years back it was the norm. The institute I worked for had a 5 year rule and you got kicked out (if you were doing research), but a few people managed to get extensions around that.
      - Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
        It has changed, I think around 3 or 4 years ago.
alkonaut 8y ago
Depending on how cheap that may not be such a bad thing. You are effectively having a "real job" from 25 (if a slightly worse paid one than in industry), and most importantly you get the PhD without accumulating any more debt. This is an important factor in equality and recruitment meaning not only those that can afford grad school will do it.
- GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago
  It's europe, there's not that much debt.
  - alkonaut 8y ago
    In e.g. Sweden (that has this PhD system), the max student debt allowed (unless you go to a private lender which is more or less unheard of) is for 5 years full time studies. Meaning you already "maxed out" your student debt before starting tour PhD.
    - dagw 8y ago
      In Sweden PhD positions tend to pay around the median wage for a first job out of university.
timvdalen 8y ago
Wait, you can do a PhD without having a Master's degree? In Holland, most PhD's build on the knowledge you gain in a Master's programme.
- oarfish 8y ago
  Most or many German phds are intended to be 3 years long, while in the US many people do 5 years, but it's basically a master's and phd combined. For instance a German phd will almost always be only research, no classes. So really it's not that different, master's and phdare just rolled into one in the US.
r_c_a_d 8y ago
I am sad to hear that this is still going on. I got my PhD 25 years ago and it was the norm then. Postgrads were used as IT support as well as teaching assistants and anything else going. At least I knew this when I started. And it motivated me to get finished in 3 years. Someone did give me the advice in this article before I started. Which was good. I wasn't in it for the money. It was the freedom to work on things that interested me that mattered. What no-one told me later, when I started a post-doc, was that the chances of getting a full-time academic job were close to zero... now that did feel like 3 years wasted.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by Scea91 8y ago

jcelerier 8y ago

> People in my country usually start PhD. at 25 and take at least 6 years to finish, uh ? which country are you in ? In france like you said you have to do a master before BUT a phd is only 3 years. I'm 26 and I finished my phd - had my defense earlier this year when I was still 25.

Scea91 8y ago
To be fair, my university also advertises PhD. as a 3 year program. Yet the median time at my department is over 6 years. It was wrong from me to generalise to whole Europe. I didn't want to be too specific in my comment. On the other hand, the upside is that we do not have to pay a single dollar for education here as opposed to US.

MandieD 8y ago

My husband is a German who did a Mech E PhD, and indeed was 31 when he finished, despite going through the pipeline completely on schedule. Back then, German students finished high school (Gymnasium) at 19, then did a Diplom (think combination bachelors/masters) which took 5 years. In his particular institute, the better you were, the LONGER it often took because the professors found stuff they wanted you to help with unless you were really good at boundaries. My husband took 7 years; a very kind, very bright friend of his needed 8.5.

AlunAlun 8y ago

This used to be the situation in Europe but it got out of hand, as a result all new PhDs in Europe must be advertised as three year programs, and completed in four at a maximum.

Scea91 8y ago
Students apply for extension after four years. The only difference is that after 4 years you no longer receive the PhD. stipend and have to be paid from project grants. This might further reduce your income or force you to work even more on projects related only tangentially to your thesis.
collyw 8y ago
I have worked in a few academic institutes (and still know many friends in the same places). 5 years seems to be the norm, with some people taking up to 7.
- AlunAlun 8y ago
  I am university lecturer, and the rules have been tightened dramatically in the last few years, precisely to prevent 7 or 8 year-long PhDs, which were indeed getting increasingly common, and benefited nobody. Now, students must submit their thesis within five years (one of my students very nearly failed his PhD because of this), and there are funding restrictions for continuing beyond three.
- Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
  I didn't know this was a Europe-wide rule, but as a professor in Spain I can attest that the 3 years + 1 year extension rule is now enforced and met. If your time elapses and you haven't completed your thesis, you're out.
  - collyw 8y ago
    I am in Spain. Maybe it has changed but a few years back it was the norm. The institute I worked for had a 5 year rule and you got kicked out (if you were doing research), but a few people managed to get extensions around that.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
      It has changed, I think around 3 or 4 years ago.

alkonaut 8y ago

Depending on how cheap that may not be such a bad thing. You are effectively having a "real job" from 25 (if a slightly worse paid one than in industry), and most importantly you get the PhD without accumulating any more debt. This is an important factor in equality and recruitment meaning not only those that can afford grad school will do it.

GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago
It's europe, there's not that much debt.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  In e.g. Sweden (that has this PhD system), the max student debt allowed (unless you go to a private lender which is more or less unheard of) is for 5 years full time studies. Meaning you already "maxed out" your student debt before starting tour PhD.
  - dagw 8y ago
    In Sweden PhD positions tend to pay around the median wage for a first job out of university.

timvdalen 8y ago

Wait, you can do a PhD without having a Master's degree? In Holland, most PhD's build on the knowledge you gain in a Master's programme.

oarfish 8y ago
Most or many German phds are intended to be 3 years long, while in the US many people do 5 years, but it's basically a master's and phd combined. For instance a German phd will almost always be only research, no classes. So really it's not that different, master's and phdare just rolled into one in the US.

r_c_a_d 8y ago

I am sad to hear that this is still going on. I got my PhD 25 years ago and it was the norm then. Postgrads were used as IT support as well as teaching assistants and anything else going. At least I knew this when I started. And it motivated me to get finished in 3 years. Someone did give me the advice in this article before I started. Which was good. I wasn't in it for the money. It was the freedom to work on things that interested me that mattered. What no-one told me later, when I started a post-doc, was that the chances of getting a full-time academic job were close to zero... now that did feel like 3 years wasted.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]