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The very reason they are taboo or sensitive words are the reason we use them to express extremity. We are violating the fragility of the term as a means of exp

The very reason they are taboo or sensitive words are the reason we use them to express extremity. We are violating the fragility of the term as a means of expression. It's somewhat like what extreme art or film can do, but on a much smaller scale. If people in a culture say that they are using terms as a means of expression and don't believe they are actually homophobic, isn't it a little presumptuous to assume they are? Maybe they are, but if they otherwise don't exhibit homophobic behavior, I tend to believe they are not. Words and actions are entirely different. Also, who should judge whether the word is 'good' or 'bad'? You? A committee? Language evolves organically, and a small cadre of privileged Westerners don't get to decide how a culture uses them. Especially if that culture otherwise doesn't condone violent or homophobic behavior.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
Since I do not speak fluent Spanish, I wouldn't dare judge this specific use case. I was merely disputing the idea that if privileged people knew real suffering, they wouldn't bother to argue about language. My maternal grandmother came from a low level noble family. The family sold the title when they fell on hard times, which is why I am not nobility. I was homeless for about a year before I finally grasped how upper-class my mother's expectations are. I think I fully qualify as someone from a very privileged background who has experienced real hardship, and for far more than a mere month.
- axlprose 8y ago
  Hardship is hardship regardless of where it's experienced, or by whom, it doesn't make it any less real, but it does take on very different flavors depending on the cultural context, and that can shape one's outlook a lot. Being in a bad spot while surrounded by examples of people that are doing well is inevitably going to be a different experience from going through hardship somewhere where everyone around you is also in a shit situation. They both suck, and I'm not about to try and compare one to the other, but it wouldn't surprise me that alone produces different results for the people experiencing the hardship. For example, since I moved to the US ages ago, I've regularly found a lot more in common between myself (a central american) and the world views of immigrants from china, vietnam, and russia, than I have with people from the US, and it wasn't because my american friends were all super well off (most of them live paycheck to paycheck, and more than a few have dealt with homelessness, drug addiction, or involvement with other dubious activities). It's hard to describe, but it encompasses a sort of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" type of outlook that seems to form the basis of much of the thinking in these cultures. At least in my experience. And in the case of slurs in spanish in particular, it's actually part of a broader context that includes the casual use of words that would be considered blunt insults in the west (though not necessarily slurs), as expected parts of conversation, and often times even as terms of endearment. Like, getting someone's attention by calling them the spanish equivalent of "fatso", "bastard", or "idiot" would be considered normal and non-offensive by the person receiving the remark. It's viewed in the same vein as calling someone skinny/short/tall/black/white/asian/etc, which is to say, it's treated as light-hearted mocking that doesn't really mean anything other than something to get your attention by. If a person wants to take a mild jab at you, they might call you one of the more infamous "slur" words like puto/pendejo/maricon/idiota/etc, but the terms in this group vary wildly by region, and they're generally not considered to be any more severe than calling someone an ass here. If you really want to get under the skin of someone in spanish, you have to basically insult their mothers or physically threaten them somehow. Basically, so long as you aren't literally threatening a person's family or physical safety, it's not really taken seriously very much, and I believe this is largely because your physical safety can very realistically be in serious danger in those parts of the world. For example, it's been several years, and I still find it odd to not hear gunshots going off outside my house at night every now and then; which is weird because it's not something you'd normally associate with a comforting sound that would remind someone of "home". That being said, latin-america is huge, and I don't claim to speak for all the countries there, but there is a decent amount of overlap in the cultures.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    While homeless, I camped someplace where hearing gunshots happened, though not, say, nightly. My father grew up in the Great Depression and fought in two wars. My mother grew up in Germany during WW2 and it's aftermath. Let me suggest that cultural misunderstanding and difficulty adequately translating a word is universal and not simply a rich versus poor thing. Let me also suggest that if language mattered so very little to you because your hardships have made it clear to you that this is trivial and not worth arguing over, then you would have dropped it already. You yourself disprove the idea that people who have really suffered wouldn't bother with such a minor detail as it's unimportant. Also: love your handle.
    - axlprose 8y ago
      You admitted that you don't speak fluent spanish, yet you decided to put words in my mouth about a post I wrote entirely in spanish, that was written that way because it was directed very specifically at the poster I replied to. I never said language was a "rich versus poor thing", and I never belittled your hardships, especially since the first thing I did in the post you're responding to was validate them, yet you interpret this as us having an argument: why? If anything, it is that very interpretation that proves the entire point I've been making about the cultures picking their battles very differently. I might not see why any of these things need to be met with such emotional resistance, but it is clear that some people do, and that's the only difference I was pointing at. Everything else I said was an attempt at having a discussion clarifying why such a difference might arise. And if in a bit of irony, I'm misinterpreting you, then please do clarify, cause I might be fairly assimilated, but I'm still not perfect. I can't even begin to describe how many egg shells I regularly walk on trying to talk with americans to this day still.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I don't think I've said anything about your post in Spanish. A third party replied to that post fully in English and I responded to that. Let me suggest this is a misunderstanding. I haven't said anything was taboo. I merely said that people who have suffered can still believe use of language is worth arguing over and that your willingness to continue this argument aligns better with that assertion than with the assertion that if you've known real suffering, you wouldn't bother to argue such a thing. I don't believe I've put words in your mouth. Yet, you feel disrespected at the idea that I might do so. Disrespected and affronted. And you feel compelled to defend your words. FWIW, I did run your comment through Google translate since I can only pick out a few words here and there. I think it likely butchered it and I believe it also cut it off somewhere in the middle. It struck me as both impassioned and compassionate. I wish I had a proper English version of it to consider. But my desire to enjoy your thoughts seemed too trivial to remark upon and it struck me as egomaniacal hubris to impose upon you with such a request, so I didn't bother. Peace.
- evilturnip 8y ago
  OK, I think I understand what you're saying. I still think it's telling that an entire people that come from a country where the system functions much more poorly and suffer from a relative lack of privilege can look on in bemusement at our language games. I think external perspectives do really make us take a step back and help us see what we are really doing.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

Since I do not speak fluent Spanish, I wouldn't dare judge this specific use case. I was merely disputing the idea that if privileged people knew real suffering, they wouldn't bother to argue about language. My maternal grandmother came from a low level noble family. The family sold the title when they fell on hard times, which is why I am not nobility. I was homeless for about a year before I finally grasped how upper-class my mother's expectations are. I think I fully qualify as someone from a very privileged background who has experienced real hardship, and for far more than a mere month.

axlprose 8y ago
Hardship is hardship regardless of where it's experienced, or by whom, it doesn't make it any less real, but it does take on very different flavors depending on the cultural context, and that can shape one's outlook a lot. Being in a bad spot while surrounded by examples of people that are doing well is inevitably going to be a different experience from going through hardship somewhere where everyone around you is also in a shit situation. They both suck, and I'm not about to try and compare one to the other, but it wouldn't surprise me that alone produces different results for the people experiencing the hardship. For example, since I moved to the US ages ago, I've regularly found a lot more in common between myself (a central american) and the world views of immigrants from china, vietnam, and russia, than I have with people from the US, and it wasn't because my american friends were all super well off (most of them live paycheck to paycheck, and more than a few have dealt with homelessness, drug addiction, or involvement with other dubious activities). It's hard to describe, but it encompasses a sort of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" type of outlook that seems to form the basis of much of the thinking in these cultures. At least in my experience. And in the case of slurs in spanish in particular, it's actually part of a broader context that includes the casual use of words that would be considered blunt insults in the west (though not necessarily slurs), as expected parts of conversation, and often times even as terms of endearment. Like, getting someone's attention by calling them the spanish equivalent of "fatso", "bastard", or "idiot" would be considered normal and non-offensive by the person receiving the remark. It's viewed in the same vein as calling someone skinny/short/tall/black/white/asian/etc, which is to say, it's treated as light-hearted mocking that doesn't really mean anything other than something to get your attention by. If a person wants to take a mild jab at you, they might call you one of the more infamous "slur" words like puto/pendejo/maricon/idiota/etc, but the terms in this group vary wildly by region, and they're generally not considered to be any more severe than calling someone an ass here. If you really want to get under the skin of someone in spanish, you have to basically insult their mothers or physically threaten them somehow. Basically, so long as you aren't literally threatening a person's family or physical safety, it's not really taken seriously very much, and I believe this is largely because your physical safety can very realistically be in serious danger in those parts of the world. For example, it's been several years, and I still find it odd to not hear gunshots going off outside my house at night every now and then; which is weird because it's not something you'd normally associate with a comforting sound that would remind someone of "home". That being said, latin-america is huge, and I don't claim to speak for all the countries there, but there is a decent amount of overlap in the cultures.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  While homeless, I camped someplace where hearing gunshots happened, though not, say, nightly. My father grew up in the Great Depression and fought in two wars. My mother grew up in Germany during WW2 and it's aftermath. Let me suggest that cultural misunderstanding and difficulty adequately translating a word is universal and not simply a rich versus poor thing. Let me also suggest that if language mattered so very little to you because your hardships have made it clear to you that this is trivial and not worth arguing over, then you would have dropped it already. You yourself disprove the idea that people who have really suffered wouldn't bother with such a minor detail as it's unimportant. Also: love your handle.
  - axlprose 8y ago
    You admitted that you don't speak fluent spanish, yet you decided to put words in my mouth about a post I wrote entirely in spanish, that was written that way because it was directed very specifically at the poster I replied to. I never said language was a "rich versus poor thing", and I never belittled your hardships, especially since the first thing I did in the post you're responding to was validate them, yet you interpret this as us having an argument: why? If anything, it is that very interpretation that proves the entire point I've been making about the cultures picking their battles very differently. I might not see why any of these things need to be met with such emotional resistance, but it is clear that some people do, and that's the only difference I was pointing at. Everything else I said was an attempt at having a discussion clarifying why such a difference might arise. And if in a bit of irony, I'm misinterpreting you, then please do clarify, cause I might be fairly assimilated, but I'm still not perfect. I can't even begin to describe how many egg shells I regularly walk on trying to talk with americans to this day still.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I don't think I've said anything about your post in Spanish. A third party replied to that post fully in English and I responded to that. Let me suggest this is a misunderstanding. I haven't said anything was taboo. I merely said that people who have suffered can still believe use of language is worth arguing over and that your willingness to continue this argument aligns better with that assertion than with the assertion that if you've known real suffering, you wouldn't bother to argue such a thing. I don't believe I've put words in your mouth. Yet, you feel disrespected at the idea that I might do so. Disrespected and affronted. And you feel compelled to defend your words. FWIW, I did run your comment through Google translate since I can only pick out a few words here and there. I think it likely butchered it and I believe it also cut it off somewhere in the middle. It struck me as both impassioned and compassionate. I wish I had a proper English version of it to consider. But my desire to enjoy your thoughts seemed too trivial to remark upon and it struck me as egomaniacal hubris to impose upon you with such a request, so I didn't bother. Peace.
evilturnip 8y ago
OK, I think I understand what you're saying. I still think it's telling that an entire people that come from a country where the system functions much more poorly and suffer from a relative lack of privilege can look on in bemusement at our language games. I think external perspectives do really make us take a step back and help us see what we are really doing.