4 ms·

>A master's degree will not materially improve your employment prospects but will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. I don't like "don't do it"

>A master's degree will not materially improve your employment prospects but will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. I don't like "don't do it" advice without any compelling reasons. It is better for me to try and fail than to regret not having tried it. I am going to seek people who will support my desired path. What if I wanted to work at NASA or Intel? Getting an internship from one of these companies is hard enough. But not impossible, and worthwhile building valuable connections from your internship for referrals to a full-time job. But going to work there with no formal CS background, no inside referrals, with a non-STEM degree, with tenuous experience is much, much harder. So there is my argument for wanting a higher education. At least I stated my argument.

csa 8y ago
> I don't like "don't do it" advice without any compelling reasons. The compelling reasons 'patio11 offered were that it will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. If you don't find those compelling, then that's your prerogative. The whole NASA or Intel thing... I think you hit the nail on the head with "building valuable connections". I think you need to do this regardless of where you want to work. If you decide you want to work at one of these places or some place like it, make sure that you understand what is and is not required for the job. A certain degree may be required (explicitly), there may be age expectations (most likely illegal, but it happens), and/or there may be soft skills that you may not have yet and may never acquire (a very real requirement to get hired that is often overlooked by many people looking for specific jobs). FWIW, 'patio11 has some high quality experience with the engineering hiring market and has written some seminal texts about it. Rather than blithely reject his advice (as you seem to do here), I humbly suggest that you engage with him in a more constructive way, perhaps by engaging with questions (e.g., about his thought process, about specific details on career direction that you failed to mention in your original post, etc.). Also note, as a general rule, people with highly-informed and high-quality advice typically aren't looking for an argument, a debate, or (worse) a moving target of discussion -- you seem to have taken your reply one or more of these directions. The way you engage with people matters, and I wonder if this is a limiting factor of your career development. Regardless, best of luck in your search. I hope you keep us updated with your status.
- ccajas 8y ago
  >The compelling reasons 'patio11 offered were that it will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. Your return on investment on a Masters CS degree will come over time. For example, once you finish the degree, you should be in a better negotiating position in your current company when discussing promotions as you have demonstrated a willingness to follow through with personal development in service of the company. If you lose your current job, having a CS degree is great future risk mitigation. While a portfolio and experience sounds good enough, you'd have to jump more hoops through HR without a CS degree. But once you have it you could get a job almost anywhere you want. >FWIW, 'patio11 has some high quality experience with the engineering hiring market and has written some seminal texts about it. This is important to know. However, I think it would be better of patio11 to open his comment by stating a short summary of this experience in order to lend more credence to his suggestions. >there may be soft skills that you may not have yet and may never acquire I'm curious about this. Especially on the "may never acquire" part. You mean that there are some soft skills that some people would never attain? That's interesting to me and I'd like to know why.
  - csa 8y ago
    A few responses: 1. “Your return on investment on a Masters CS degree will come over time.” It might produce a positive ROI over time. It really depends on what you do, what you intend to do, and what you value. 2. Re: negotiation. Check out ‘patio11’s seminal text on this subject (other good articles on there as well): https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ 3. Re: risk mitigation. A robust professional network is almost always more valuable and more resilient than a MS CS. I actually think that this is OP’s biggest opportunity/challenge. 4. Re: Summary of experience. I looked at your profile, and it seems like you’re relatively new here. ‘patio11 is one of HN’s most prolific posters. His posts have declined dramatically in frequency (due to work?) over the past year or so, but he is one of the grand hommes of HN. Check out this link: https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders. ‘patio11 is third, and that’s with a year plus of minimal commenting. Note that I have a very large scrapbook of smart things he has said in HN comments. 5. Remember that leader list, check out #1. ‘tptacek and ‘patio11 actually started a business together focused on the hiring of software engineers. It shut down for reasons unknown, but HN was (largely) rooting for them. It is still not entirely clear why they shut it down other than “hiring is broken” (i.e., employers claiming they want $TRAIT, but demure when a candidate with $TRAIT is presented to them, usually for something nebulous like an undeclared standard for culture fit). Anyway, both of these folks have a great deal of direct and indirect industry experience, and they have a habit of saying very smart things on a regular basis. 6. Re: soft skill limits. Short answer, cognitive biases. Slightly longer answer, first the problem needs to be acknowledged, and then — maybe — it can be solved. There are myriad psychological reasons (e.g, cognitive biases, mental disorders, etc.) for breakdown to happen at any step of this process. Is it possible to attain almost any soft skil, sure. Is it probable? Not for some people.

csa 8y ago

> I don't like "don't do it" advice without any compelling reasons. The compelling reasons 'patio11 offered were that it will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. If you don't find those compelling, then that's your prerogative. The whole NASA or Intel thing... I think you hit the nail on the head with "building valuable connections". I think you need to do this regardless of where you want to work. If you decide you want to work at one of these places or some place like it, make sure that you understand what is and is not required for the job. A certain degree may be required (explicitly), there may be age expectations (most likely illegal, but it happens), and/or there may be soft skills that you may not have yet and may never acquire (a very real requirement to get hired that is often overlooked by many people looking for specific jobs). FWIW, 'patio11 has some high quality experience with the engineering hiring market and has written some seminal texts about it. Rather than blithely reject his advice (as you seem to do here), I humbly suggest that you engage with him in a more constructive way, perhaps by engaging with questions (e.g., about his thought process, about specific details on career direction that you failed to mention in your original post, etc.). Also note, as a general rule, people with highly-informed and high-quality advice typically aren't looking for an argument, a debate, or (worse) a moving target of discussion -- you seem to have taken your reply one or more of these directions. The way you engage with people matters, and I wonder if this is a limiting factor of your career development. Regardless, best of luck in your search. I hope you keep us updated with your status.

ccajas 8y ago
>The compelling reasons 'patio11 offered were that it will cost a lot of money and years of opportunity cost. Your return on investment on a Masters CS degree will come over time. For example, once you finish the degree, you should be in a better negotiating position in your current company when discussing promotions as you have demonstrated a willingness to follow through with personal development in service of the company. If you lose your current job, having a CS degree is great future risk mitigation. While a portfolio and experience sounds good enough, you'd have to jump more hoops through HR without a CS degree. But once you have it you could get a job almost anywhere you want. >FWIW, 'patio11 has some high quality experience with the engineering hiring market and has written some seminal texts about it. This is important to know. However, I think it would be better of patio11 to open his comment by stating a short summary of this experience in order to lend more credence to his suggestions. >there may be soft skills that you may not have yet and may never acquire I'm curious about this. Especially on the "may never acquire" part. You mean that there are some soft skills that some people would never attain? That's interesting to me and I'd like to know why.
- csa 8y ago
  A few responses: 1. “Your return on investment on a Masters CS degree will come over time.” It might produce a positive ROI over time. It really depends on what you do, what you intend to do, and what you value. 2. Re: negotiation. Check out ‘patio11’s seminal text on this subject (other good articles on there as well): https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ 3. Re: risk mitigation. A robust professional network is almost always more valuable and more resilient than a MS CS. I actually think that this is OP’s biggest opportunity/challenge. 4. Re: Summary of experience. I looked at your profile, and it seems like you’re relatively new here. ‘patio11 is one of HN’s most prolific posters. His posts have declined dramatically in frequency (due to work?) over the past year or so, but he is one of the grand hommes of HN. Check out this link: https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders. ‘patio11 is third, and that’s with a year plus of minimal commenting. Note that I have a very large scrapbook of smart things he has said in HN comments. 5. Remember that leader list, check out #1. ‘tptacek and ‘patio11 actually started a business together focused on the hiring of software engineers. It shut down for reasons unknown, but HN was (largely) rooting for them. It is still not entirely clear why they shut it down other than “hiring is broken” (i.e., employers claiming they want $TRAIT, but demure when a candidate with $TRAIT is presented to them, usually for something nebulous like an undeclared standard for culture fit). Anyway, both of these folks have a great deal of direct and indirect industry experience, and they have a habit of saying very smart things on a regular basis. 6. Re: soft skill limits. Short answer, cognitive biases. Slightly longer answer, first the problem needs to be acknowledged, and then — maybe — it can be solved. There are myriad psychological reasons (e.g, cognitive biases, mental disorders, etc.) for breakdown to happen at any step of this process. Is it possible to attain almost any soft skil, sure. Is it probable? Not for some people.