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Obviously we read something different in our messages. Anyway: - Orcas are mammals and not fish. - Your study talks about fish. So does the first article I m

by gepi79 8y ago

Obviously we read something different in our messages. Anyway: - Orcas are mammals and not fish. - Your study talks about fish. So does the first article I mentioned. "My" article mentions nociceptors and opioids (pain killers) and an experiment with painkiller lidocaine that suggests that fish feel some kind of pain. Note that both fish and mammals have nociceptors and opioids as chemicals in the brain. That fishes eat after surgery does not mean that fishes do not feel pain. Some people eat as response to stress and fear. Quote from "my" article (I guess finfish means true fish in this context): In 2013, the American Veterinary Medical Association published new guidelines for the euthanasia of animals, which included the following statements: “Suggestions that finfish responses to pain merely represent simple reflexes have been refuted. … the preponderance of accumulated evidence supports the position that finfish should be accorded the same considerations as terrestrial vertebrates in regard to relief from pain.” Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/#CqYzmrX77rtzXkeS.99 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain... Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
You're the one who chose to reference an article discussing fish, so we're discussing fish. You're also once again straw manning the point of fish and surgery. It's not that fish eat after surgery. Fish eat, feed, swim, and behave identically following surgery that would leave a human in immobilizing and excruciating pain. The study I referenced gives a large overview of studies in the field and effectively refutes many of them. This includes the 'acid lip' experiments that article references, which among numerous other problems manages to even contradict itself. That discussion is on page 11 of the article. If you're unaware of how to manage science paywalls: https://sci-hub.mu/ https://sci-hub.mu/ A major problem we have with science today, especially in the 'softer' fields, is that it's being heavily affected by ideological bias. Think about the replication crisis in psychology where some 69% of studies were unable to be replicated. It seems that many 'scientists' are increasingly starting with their conclusion and then doing anything they can to 'prove' it, at the minimum including p-hacking. The reason I mention this is that this article also gives an overview of various replication efforts for some of the studies showing stronger results. Time and again, replication was unable to repeat these results.
- gepi79 8y ago
  I mentioned eating after surgery because your link gave not more information. Thanks for the link to https://sci-hub.mu/ https://sci-hub.mu/ I fail to see the strawman arguments that you mention again. The discussion is about the probability of animals having emotions and feelings. Based on the structure of the brain and the receptors and the involved chemicals, it is very likely that all reptiles and all mammals feel pain. Even fish might have some sense of pain. Humans follow often the "intelligence" related to feelings (bad diet, lack of sports, depression, fear, laziness, procrastination, addiction,...). IMO it is very likely that animals that can learn are driven by (intelligence related to) emotions and feelings and not by some unemotional intelligence and will or a simple "mechanical" reflex. Another quote from another article: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/pain-management-reptile-patients-proceedings?id=&sk=&date=&pageID=2 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/pain-management-reptile... It is very difficult to assess pain in reptiles and there are no standard methods or assessments available to assess the level of pain in birds. Therefore, you are left with past experience, observation and anthropomorphism (if I had a fractured bone I would want an opiate). Reptiles seem very stoic and do not cry out in pain. I vividly remember many years ago amputating a rear leg in a chameleon and upon recovery he was making a squeaking-type noise and had tachypnea. Despite having been taught that "opioids don't work in reptiles" I gave him morphine. Fifteen minutes later when he stopped making the noise and breathed a more normal rate, I became a convert and gave reptiles analgesics and became dedicated to study the effects of analgesics in reptiles.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    What I meant by the strawman there is that you were suggesting that I (or the paper at least) was implying the fish were doing something that could be seen as abnormal, when that was not the case. In any case, I suspect we could probably spend much more time going back and forth on this, but probably to no end in either case. I've enjoyed the discussion, even with the strawmen!
    - gepi79 8y ago
      I agree because unfortunately scientists do not know very much yet. I like the talks by Lisa Feldman Barrett although it might seem to contradict what I wrote. https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Barb_Finlay_on_the_triune_brain https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Barb_Finlay_on_the_t... https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Triune_brain_myth https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Triune_brain_myth https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Criticisms_of_the_limbic_system_concept https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Criticisms_of_the_li... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFPBey02b0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFPBey02b0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gks6ceq4eQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gks6ceq4eQ

by gepi79 8y ago

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

You're the one who chose to reference an article discussing fish, so we're discussing fish. You're also once again straw manning the point of fish and surgery. It's not that fish eat after surgery. Fish eat, feed, swim, and behave identically following surgery that would leave a human in immobilizing and excruciating pain. The study I referenced gives a large overview of studies in the field and effectively refutes many of them. This includes the 'acid lip' experiments that article references, which among numerous other problems manages to even contradict itself. That discussion is on page 11 of the article. If you're unaware of how to manage science paywalls: https://sci-hub.mu/ https://sci-hub.mu/ A major problem we have with science today, especially in the 'softer' fields, is that it's being heavily affected by ideological bias. Think about the replication crisis in psychology where some 69% of studies were unable to be replicated. It seems that many 'scientists' are increasingly starting with their conclusion and then doing anything they can to 'prove' it, at the minimum including p-hacking. The reason I mention this is that this article also gives an overview of various replication efforts for some of the studies showing stronger results. Time and again, replication was unable to repeat these results.

gepi79 8y ago
I mentioned eating after surgery because your link gave not more information. Thanks for the link to https://sci-hub.mu/ https://sci-hub.mu/ I fail to see the strawman arguments that you mention again. The discussion is about the probability of animals having emotions and feelings. Based on the structure of the brain and the receptors and the involved chemicals, it is very likely that all reptiles and all mammals feel pain. Even fish might have some sense of pain. Humans follow often the "intelligence" related to feelings (bad diet, lack of sports, depression, fear, laziness, procrastination, addiction,...). IMO it is very likely that animals that can learn are driven by (intelligence related to) emotions and feelings and not by some unemotional intelligence and will or a simple "mechanical" reflex. Another quote from another article: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/pain-management-reptile-patients-proceedings?id=&sk=&date=&pageID=2 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/pain-management-reptile... It is very difficult to assess pain in reptiles and there are no standard methods or assessments available to assess the level of pain in birds. Therefore, you are left with past experience, observation and anthropomorphism (if I had a fractured bone I would want an opiate). Reptiles seem very stoic and do not cry out in pain. I vividly remember many years ago amputating a rear leg in a chameleon and upon recovery he was making a squeaking-type noise and had tachypnea. Despite having been taught that "opioids don't work in reptiles" I gave him morphine. Fifteen minutes later when he stopped making the noise and breathed a more normal rate, I became a convert and gave reptiles analgesics and became dedicated to study the effects of analgesics in reptiles.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  What I meant by the strawman there is that you were suggesting that I (or the paper at least) was implying the fish were doing something that could be seen as abnormal, when that was not the case. In any case, I suspect we could probably spend much more time going back and forth on this, but probably to no end in either case. I've enjoyed the discussion, even with the strawmen!
  - gepi79 8y ago
    I agree because unfortunately scientists do not know very much yet. I like the talks by Lisa Feldman Barrett although it might seem to contradict what I wrote. https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Barb_Finlay_on_the_triune_brain https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Barb_Finlay_on_the_t... https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Triune_brain_myth https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Triune_brain_myth https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Criticisms_of_the_limbic_system_concept https://how-emotions-are-made.com/notes/Criticisms_of_the_li... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFPBey02b0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFPBey02b0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gks6ceq4eQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gks6ceq4eQ