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The Story of Why I Left Riot Games

225 points by jlward4th 8y ago

cafard 8y ago
Geezer here: can somebody explain to me the offensiveness of the iceberg tee shirt?
danmg 8y ago
TL;DR: Hyper sensitive employee throws a tantrum after someone makes a play on words. Good riddance.
- anon5432111 8y ago
  I'd say there's certainly a lot more to take away from this article then just that. It is a specific example for how Riot may inadvertently be harming their culture through blindspots management may not realize. It demonstrates how personal values collide with leadership and the challenges of standing by our values. Most importantly, it highlights how people are affected and hurt in this kind of environment.
  - danmg 8y ago
    Ok, Berry. If you want to defend your own blog spam at least have the courage to do it under your own name.
    - dang 8y ago
      Attacking other users will get you banned here. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
draw_down 8y ago
I hate our industry so bad.
anonymousturtle 8y ago
I work in sales, not gaming. Maybe there is harassment at Riot Games, however sayings like "no doesn't necessarily mean no" is part of a sales mindset. It is not condoning rape, it is saying that just because the customer says no doesn't mean you should give up. Sales takes some persistence to see if you can get them to say yes. I imagine that is what the recruiter was saying, that just because a candidate says no, does not mean you should take it and give up. That does not mean you should "rape" them, which in this analogy would either be forcing them to buy from you, or forcing them to work for you, without consent. That is obviously not going to happen. It just means that you need to keep trying to get to yes, because you're going to hear no a lot, and some of those nos will later become yeses. Just because you interpreted that saying as being related to rape doesn't make it a bad saying. It likely just means you're unfamiliar with sales, and reading something else into it. If you do a search for: no doesn't mean no, you will find a ton of sales material on it. For example off the top of a search: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gtyq6Lyt5Vc https://youtube.com/watch?v=gtyq6Lyt5Vc https://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Always-Mean-Influencing-Cooperation/dp/0615515231 https://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Always-Mean-Influencing-Cooper...
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  Yeah, that just seemed to me like somebody looking for trouble where there was really none to be found.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  Start With No by Jim Camp, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss are two very good books on how to use/work with "No" in negotiations.
- rizwan 8y ago
  In the context of sales, you can have a conversation about perseverance and not taking no for an answer. However: > At the end of that example, Brandon laughed and said, “I was about to say something.” He paused, and then went on to say, “No doesn’t necessarily mean no.” Brandon _changed_ the context into something offensive and then made the joke. This was an attempt at rape joke. He even prepped the audience for it by laughing and saying, "I wasn't going to say this, but..."
orf 8y ago
Thanks for the interesting read. Clearly there was a culture clash and that can take a terrible toll on a person - if you've invested a lot into a company should you adapt to them, even if it's against what you believe is right? At what point does the compensation or sunk costs make adapting easier? I'm sure that's more common (and not always related to toxicity) than people think. The head of the company made an incredibly poor play on words by mocking a popular anti-rape slogan, by anyone's judgement. Sure, it's perhaps a sales slogan, but context matters. And by this account it's pretty clear what he was doing and what he was saying. That being said, this is the only account I've read and there is always another side to the story. But it takes a lot of guts to stand up for what you believe in and the author clearly believed Mark crossed his line. Right or wrong, bravo for not being swallowed up.
Sumaso 8y ago
I wonder if the culture has changed since riot did its whole "People who are toxic in game are toxic in the workplace" and axed 25% of its OG staff. Edit: https://rework.withgoogle.com/case-studies/riot-games-assessing-toxicity/ https://rework.withgoogle.com/case-studies/riot-games-assess...
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  > and axed 25% of its OG staff. That's not what the article says at all. It says that 25% of the staff fired in the year prior to the experiment would have been given the "toxic" label had they been subject to the experiment rather than fired for whatever reason. Most of the employees labeled "toxic" were, as you might expect, younger and junior, with less experience in "the working world". The article suggests nothing about some huge portion of Riot's "OG" staff being fired by this policy. > Riot looked at the preceding 12 months of gameplay of every employee and discovered there was a correlation between in-game and in-Riot toxicity. They determined that 25% of employees who had been let go in the previous year were players with unusually high in-game toxicity
- lliamander 8y ago
  Note that the article you cite also reports Riot as being one of the best places to work (according to Fortune) and indeed explicitly makes the claim that it is not a toxic environment. It sounds more like the wanted to reduce the turn-over of their hiring process by pre-screening candidates for behavior, rather than dealing with a systemic problem in their organization. It could be that the results of the re:work article were glossing over unaddressed toxic behavior (i.e. crude language) but it could also be that they were targeting different kinds of toxic behavior. Now, I wouldn't use the kind of language described by the OP, nor do I think I would feel especially comfortable working in an environment that did. However, I can conceive of other kinds of behavior (with regard to playing the game) that they might have been looking for, including: * being a "lone wolf" and generally not cooperating with teammates * persistently blaming others for one's own failings * taking undue credit for successes * rage quiting, or otherwise being a sore loser * trolling others rather than actually playing the game EDIT: fix formatting
poisonarena 8y ago
"So, when people would say things to the group like “the other team raped us because our mid kept jungling,” I would attempt to reflect back more appropriate language by saying back to them “so you’re saying your team lost because you weren’t working together.” I can’t say that I think it had much impact, but I figured this was the long game, and slow and steady would win the race. Cultural change requires perseverance and consistency over a prolonged period of time, right?" As a Colombian guy, all these fuss over using certain words is really a problem when there are no other problems to be solved.. When you are are lucky to go to nice school, get paid lots of money, and work at a job in a really fun environment, and really, compared to our standards a perfect life, when you don't have problems, you create them.. If I tried to explain the type of problems this guy is having working at Riot Games to my friends or colleagues they would think it is absolutely ridiculous. Why would he work there if he was not expecting that? I have played LoL and this is how people being friendly talk to eachother, its not about hating women or something.. I wish I had problems like that.. You can't understand how hard it is for me to comprehend leaving a place of work that seems like heaven because some small language offends you..
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- xtracto 8y ago
  I know where you are coming from. I myself being from Mexico find the "political correctness" trend happening in the USA quite interesting. I used to work for a company that had HQ in California and offices down in Mexico. The head of HR was horrified when she visited the offices in Mexico and saw the interaction between colleagues... of particular interesting to her was that people were hugging each other!. She instructed our Country Manager to ask us not to hug each other. Of course everybody laughed when this was mentioned during an internal office meeting. It is the same problem as with the "Puto" chant of Mexicans during soccer games. Sure, literaly it is a homophogic connocation, but in practice it is used just to show animosity to the goalkeeper. It does not mean that 5000 people believe the male goalkeeper preffers to have sexual relationships with other men... they don't care.
lucidone 8y ago
It is imperative more members of tech organizations consciously decide to act in ways that are respectful, inclusive and professional, such that environments like the one described are no longer the norm. Any leadership rejecting this is indicative of their inability to grow up and be adults. We aren't in high school anymore.
- simplysimple 8y ago
  It's pretty ridiculous to me that this even needs to be said. "We need to make a conscious effort to be professional in a professional environment". What is happening to our culture...
  - Barrin92 8y ago
    >What is happening to our culture.. In this case I feel it's a particularly bad combination of the environment of a video game company and young male employees coming directly out of college, which especially in the US seems to be daycare for adults. No part of the pipeline seems to teach these individuals what it means to behave professionally in a workplace environment, and often software companies do indirectly promote it by purposefully mixing up private and work-life (drinking at work, casual attitude, no hierarchies etc..) As much as people lament corporate culture these days, I prefer it a great deal to the arrangement described in the post.
    - JimboOmega 8y ago
      Also, bear in mind that a lot of these companies are founded or led by very young men who might not even have gotten through college (let alone have any actual experience what it means to be professional in a professional context) With leadership that has no experience, what do you really expect?
      - bigiain 8y ago
        I still expect some dignity and respect for coworkers and other people in general. Buy hey, Zuck and Elon don't have any - and they're the role models de jour, right?
cal5k 8y ago
I'd like to ask a provocative question: if this was always the culture at Riot, why are people who joined the company surprised by it? Would it be wrong for people to self-select into a workplace that was tolerant of such jokes, knowing that it would not be totally inclusive? At some point if you have enough employees leadership needs to grow the hell up - but it doesn't exactly surprise me to learn that game developers use language at work that anyone with gamer friends has certainly heard in private.
- badloginagain 8y ago
  Because they don't say "We do rape jokes. Be cool with that." in the interview process.
  - Chris_Chambers 8y ago
    No one is owed a complete lack of unpleasant surprises in their life.
  - deleted 8y ago
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- Twirrim 8y ago
  How would you know before taking the job that that was the culture? Would you expect it to come up in the interview somehow? People are generally on good behaviour when candidates are being shown around (which aptly emphasises that they know certain behaviour is wrong)
- acdha 8y ago
  Most people are going to assume certain baseline standards at a large company. Maybe it’s not some big conservative financial firm but you’d be excused for thinking things like rape jokes are universally unapproved.
klagermkii 8y ago
While I'm not going to condone those kinds of comments in the workforce or elsewhere, I'm not quite sure what the general justification is for putting "rape analogies" on such a pedestal compared to other major crimes. Murder - "That went so badly, we just got slaughtered in that meeting" Rape - "If we aren't careful the competition's going to rape us" Theft - "We need to put in a plan to steal their customers ASAP" What throws me is all of those are Big Bad Things, especially murder, but I don't feel like there would be anywhere nearly the same kind of pushback to anything except making a rape analogy. Maybe a slavery analogy would do it as well? People have gone through terrible experiences where someone they love has been murdered etc, so I'm not sure it's just about the level of trauma it can induce.
- jrhurst 8y ago
  I think that individuals might have more likely personally survived the trauma of rape. So it more likely going to be an asshole thing to say. It'd be like, "We're gonna smash the competition so hard they have PTSD." to room where 30% are Iraqi war vets likely insulting to some of them.
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  For the same reason you shouldn't casually joke about the Holocaust, it's a HIGHLY emotional/sensitive topic. It's easy for guys to joke about it, but for women it's an all too real threat they have to constantly worry about.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I think there are two things going on here. First, the general assumption is that rape is a gendered thing and that treating jokes about it as socially acceptable behavior helps to oppress women in specific. I'm a woman and I've done a fair bit of research on the topic. I don't think it helps to use this framing. When I talk about my opinions, I am often accused of being a rape apologist. Women often perceive me as the enemy. Many of them seem to want to preserve some special victim card just for women rather than acknowledge that lots of men are also sexually assaulted, though it typically is not legally defined as rape because in many jurisdictions the legal definition of rape does specify that it is something only done to a woman. Nonetheless, men who are sodomized against their will in prison will say they were raped. The word encapsulates something that no other word quite captures. Second, joking about being slaughtered in the meeting probably in no way increases the risk of actual physical violence per se, much less murder, in an otherwise civilized environment. But letting ugly and actively hostile sexual remarks become the social norm can start a slippery slope that can help make things less safe when it comes to sexual boundaries per se. Most sexual abuse doesn't begin with rape. In a worst case scenario, it culminates in rape. It begins with myriad forms of disrespecting your boundaries and that disrespect absolutely can begin as verbal disrespect and then move on to unwanted touching, etc. Rapists whittle away at your expectations of respect and act like you are being ridiculous to react negatively to their behavior. This is done very intentionally and persistently. People who stand idly by and do nothing as they watch things go down this slippery slope are complicit, whether they realize it or not. It can't happen if other people stand up and say "No, this is not okay as a social norm." I used to be a lot more affectionate and expressive than I am. But I did a lot of research and, these days, I try hard to err on the side of treating other people with respect first and foremost. I don't always get it right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm too aware of how this stuff works to not feel that it needs to be taken seriously.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
This was extremely satisfying to read. I burst out laughing toward the end. I hope tone policing psychopaths continue to completely obliterate themselves like this.
robinduckett 8y ago
I applied for a job at Riot Games a few years back, after I came out of hospital following my appendix bursting. I was still in pretty bad shape, and my initial phone interview went poorly, mostly due to the fact that I couldn't breathe properly as a result of a partially collapsed lung. The hiring guy was particularly pushy, and didn't really take no for an answer, encouraging me to take the phone interview anyway. That's when I decided not to bother. Probably blacklisted from ever working there in future, but having read this article, I know I definitely won't be wanting to anyway.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  He helpfully encouraged you to do the bare minimum necessary to get the job you supposedly wanted. You’re implying that this is the same as rape.
randrews 8y ago
I've never played anything by Riot Games, but based on this article, I think I'm going to start.
ahansen 8y ago
"The head of Communications said that we were edgy, and that if we as Riot started chipping away those edges, we would become shapeless and bland, like EA or Blizzard. I responded that if we told everyone starting today there could be no more rape jokes in presentations and talks, it would still be a multi-year effort for us to no longer be edgy.” By the sounds of it Riot is in a very deep culture hole. I hope they can turn it around in the years to come.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Edginess isn't even a successful way to make games. Remember Kixeye? They don't seem to be a mobile games leader despite their edgy marketing and their racism lawsuits. Rockstar Games is like the only major game developer that embraces edginess, and even they have matured in recent years.
- taurath 8y ago
  Riot isn't regarded by anyone as edgy, because they police their players speech, apparently more strongly than they do internal speech. The most common refrain in the reddit thread on this article is "Wait, they thought they were edgy?" https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9aslos/the_story_of_why_i_left_riot_games_barry_hawkins/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9aslos/the...
m3mpp 8y ago
From virtue signaling to virtue resigning. I wonder what's the next step, virtue self-immolation? Let's keep giving berth to that kind of sensitivity in the work place and very soon, all the people will be exactly the same, bland, smooth, completely passive people. The creative, the geniuses of this world are always full of spikes, full of defects, against the norm. Well, I guess we will just have to do without them from now on...
- codyb 8y ago
  Isn't quitting your job to stand up for something just about one of the most individualistic things you could do?
  - m3mpp 8y ago
    There's standing up for your value and there's drama. This is drama. This is "look at how good I am". You stand up for your values by going to the guy and tell him "you're an asshole for joking about that, and since I don't work for assholes, I'm gone". That is standing up for your values. Don't you think?
    - andrewprock 8y ago
      He did stand up for his values. He went to the guy, and said that jokes like that are a problem. When the problem wasn't resolved he quit. Are you saying that because he wasn't an asshole back, that it was drama?
      - m3mpp 8y ago
        The drama is the blog post, the length, the minute details of everything, like if it was so big, so important. It's just a guy who said a stupid joke. If you feel so strongly, confront him for real, not with a bland "it's a problem" and then write a 5000 words blog post about it. Go tell him he's a piece of shit, something the guy could actually use to adjust his behavior. My 2 cents.
Apocryphon 8y ago
Does anyone have a good reason for why workers in the video game industry should not be unionized? Because if Susan Fowler and wage-fixing don't convince you that the tech industry as a whole shouldn't have labor unions, what about all of these horror stories coming out of games?
rndmize 8y ago
> So, when people would say things to the group like “the other team raped us because our mid kept jungling,” I would attempt to reflect back more appropriate language by saying back to them “so you’re saying your team lost because you weren’t working together.” I've noticed this in my gaming group and in the gaming culture at large. There's been this integration of much more sexual terms in the last three or four years - "raped", "cucked", "my butthole", "gaping", "shoved down the throat", etc. I feel like 10 years ago the words/phrases were less offensive - "destroyed", "wrecked", "owned", "dumpstered", "get shit on", etc. I'm not really sure why this is, but I'm not a fan of the change. It feels like in the last half a decade stuff that used to be limited to the uglier parts of the web has bled out across a much greater area and become more accepted.
- taurath 8y ago
  10 years ago it 12 year olds on xbox-live shouting as many overtly racist terms as they had ever heard in their lives. Now thats generally going to get you banned, at least. I don't honestly think its gotten worse. The stupid thing is if you go and play League of Legends and say most of those sexual terms you will be BANNED or at least muted for a week. And yet its cool to say that in the office.
  - bigiain 8y ago
    Exactly. Some of those kids are now 22 year old "team leads" or "managers" or "founders". And way too many of them haven't grown up at all.
- zumu 8y ago
  > I feel like 10 years ago the words/phrases were less offensive - "destroyed", "wrecked", "owned", "dumpstered", "get shit on", etc. Eh, I've been gaming since the 90's, and in my experience it's more or less the same. Honestly, with the proliferation of in-game voice and reporting tools it's probably gotten a bit better, esp. in regards to racist name calling.
  - Jach 8y ago
rboyd 8y ago
the whole thing sounds crazy but I'm genuinely confused why the author didn't take a stand at the crazy offensive statements that were shared earlier in the article. is it because the female colleagues took issue? if someone at my place of work used some of the language about my wife, etc, I would be trying to get it on audio and have that person terminated.
- rectang 8y ago
  It is hard and risky to take a stand against the prevailing culture. I completely understand it when people hesitate. There are techniques to do it less confrontationally, as suggested by the poster elsethread who urged giving people the "opportunity for personal growth". I'd argue that the author of the article did an admirable job of handling things, under extreme duress -- even though he was not ultimately successful. There's also a place for in-your-face obnoxious confrontation (e.g. ACT-UP), civil disobedience (breaking the law when the law is unjust), and even violence (American Revolution). None of those are the easy path.
  - rboyd 8y ago
    While I agree with everything you've written, it seems like taking a stand against the executive would require a lot more courage than wrecking someone lower in the ranks.
    - rectang 8y ago
      Well, rather than argue the finer points... let me just join you in a toast to those who do stand up!
andrewmcwatters 8y ago
It's clear to me that there are two distinct camps in scenarios like this: There's one camp (camp A) whose cultural norms contain offensive practices to those outside of the culture, and another camp (camp B) who perceives those norms at face value, without context and intent, for their offense. Another poster here used The F Word (South Park) as a great example of this. > This behavior of male-on-male aggression seemed to be a mechanism of asserting control. I don't know where Barry gets this, and it's written like a National Geographic-esque piece of a man trying to understand the actions and intents of animals in the Serengeti. He doesn't "get" them, cannot establish trust, and as a result can't influence anyone in this piece's mind about how these actions are perceived by others outside of camp A. > now I am having to speak to you like an exasperated camp counselor. This is reinforced by statements like this. This isn't edifying. This is belittling, and completely ineffective. Barry's downfall here is that he believes this is "the long game, and slow and steady would win the race." He's correct, but his execution is fruitless. Instead, what about trying to befriend these people, and then have down to earth dialogues such as, "I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but maybe we could tone it down with the rape stuff, my dudes. It's kinda not cool." I'm sure there are better methods for getting the idea across, but ultimately you change people's hearts and minds by appealing to them and winning them over.
- rectang 8y ago
  It's interesting to think about better and worse ways to move people... but in the end, Barry isn't the root of the problem. It's ultimately the people in power at Riot Games who have the responsibility to change.
- InclinedPlane 8y ago
  The entire industry and gaming culture in general has been having the "let's tone down the rape jokes, guys" conversation for years and years. At this point if it's part of your corporate culture in 2018 then it means it's something you value.
  - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
    Of course from an organizational perspective, it's not sufficient to address this in interpersonal relationships. My bottom line is that if you're going to attempt this, which is more relevant for most people, that you can't expect to belittle people and think you're going to "win" them over.
DataJunkie 8y ago
This is a bit more general... I worked there for a very short time as a consultant and I remember Barry. I remember being astonished at some of the things I saw and heard at that company and I am surprised it's not them getting the scrutiny and instead the larger tech companies. Working at Riot Games was like working in a frat house where you get paid, and I mean many of the bad parts of living in a frat house. Of the places I've worked, Riot had to have the lowest median age (early 20s), which probably contributes to the problem. The guys could be assholes, but I fear that some of the women, being young and this being their first job and an amazing opportunity, get disillusioned into thinking that this behavior is normal in industry and that is really sad. I am surprised not more have spoken out. Riot (and other gaming companies, not just Riot) has some of the bro-est culture out there and it's going to cost them in a lawsuit, just give it time.
- shriver 8y ago
  I think if you look at the incentives in that situation it's very understandable to not speak out. If you're a good employee working at Riot and you have a problem with the culture you have two options: Speak out or leave. If you speak out it can be incredibly damaging, you'll almost certainly destroy your career at riot because you'll be actively attacking people you work with. You stand a good chance of getting a reputation in the industry. The likelihood of changing the culture is microscopic - especially if you find out it's the CEO providing the lead in this behaviour. And if you succeed? Your career at Riot is still probably damaged, Riot's culture will be like any of the many other companies you could work at. During the time you're fighting for that change it's likely to be incredibly emotionally draining and you're bound to lose some friends. If you leave, you have literally none of those downsides, you've still got a good career and you can go off to one of the many other companies that are just as successful without those downsides. So to speak up you need to be incredibly principled AND you have to have some very deep stake in making THIS particular multinational corporation better. I think it makes perfect sense not to speak out for the vast majority of people.
  - DataJunkie 8y ago
    Yes, but if you're not interested in continuing in gaming, you can speak out and then quit.
laretluval 8y ago
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
Viker 8y ago
Please teach your children that perseverance, trying hard, again and again. Does not pay off. And should be looked down apon. Teach them that when they face resistance they should just say ok and walk away in the other way, because it is not for them. Teach them to be compliant and subservient. Teach them that weakness of character and self respect are not for them.
subjectsigma 8y ago
I am confused as to why this specific issue has to be so slathered in a gross layer of politics and 'progressive' thinking. Tons of people in the thread (as usual) are discussing it as a left vs right, men vs women, libertarian vs authoritarian, young vs old, etc. kind of issue. Why the fuck can't we all just agree that what they said was inappropriate and warranted professional consequences? Everyone deserves basic human decency and a professional attitude in their workplace, regardless of demographic, and thus it is silly to have the first sentence of your complaint be "As a white man..." or "As a woman..." To do so is to constantly compare the value of someone's experience over other experiences, when the answer is too obvious for this to be necessary. If you were talking about society or public policy it would make more sense I suppose, but this is not a society, it's a game company with a terrible culture. I think part of it might be that HNers (myself included, to be honest) like to hear themselves talk and have a lot to say that some of these comments come about.
darepublic 8y ago
> There was more talk about culture and some people being too sensitive. The head of Legal spoke up again, saying that it wasn’t that hearing guys say the stupid stuff they did all day made her sad or upset, it just made her want to punch them in the throat because she was sick of having to hear it all the time. I really liked that part. ^ Isn't it hypocritical to crusade against certain types of insensitive speech and yet enjoy casual references to violence against males?
- defkev 8y ago
  Absolutely, the traditional liberal double standard. > Don't do as i do, do as i say. But hush now, people here don't like somebody stating the obvious. You end up hell banned, or worse, who knows.
bsaul 8y ago
I wonder if people advocating for extreme sensitivy on sexual jokes at the workplace also ban rap music at the workplace because of the lyrics.
- foozed 8y ago
  I wouldn't say that having a problem with rape jokes at big presentations that make it into the recruiting material qualifies as "extreme sensitivity on sexual jokes"...
  - bsaul 8y ago
    Do you think anybody in that riot story thought rape was fine ? Either the guy that did the joke, or the HR that wrote it on the slide ? It is a lousy joke, with bad taste, and it sure would offend anyone who had any real life experience of a rape ( like probably half the joke woukd probably hurt somebody somewhere for some reason) . But that’s all it is. I don’t think this should be confused with actual sexual harrasment ( which maybe also took place at Riot, i don’t know).
- Jach 8y ago
  Just the rap music that isn't from a children's movie, harmless showing off of mostly meaningless wordplay, or a fusion with pop focused on subjects like love and breakups. Maybe certain politically woke songs will be tolerated, if they're by white rappers. At least they won't ban headphones.
chillidoor 8y ago
>Approximately 160 people, all the hiring managers at Riot at the time Just how big was Riot Games that they need 160 hiring managers? The only big game they made was League of Legends, right?
- rounce 8y ago
  Perhaps it reflects employee turnover rather than the company size.
  - chillidoor 8y ago
    zimpenfish mentioned that there are 2500 people working at the company so 160 hiring managers makes much more sense now.
- zimpenfish 8y ago
  I think "hiring manager" just means "anyone who wants to hire someone" - which would include pretty much everyone above peon level. [ Riot Games have 2500 employees, most in the same place (per https://www.inc.com/magazine/201612/burt-helm-lindsay-blakely/company-of-the-year-riot-games.html https://www.inc.com/magazine/201612/burt-helm-lindsay-blakel...) which makes 160 people with hiring privileges seem reasonable. ]
  - chillidoor 8y ago
    Ah, 2500. That's ~15 people per hiring manager so you're right, that does seem more reasonable.
axilmar 8y ago
Respect to one's employees should be total. There shouldn't be respect up to what the majority finds respectful. That the CEO of Riot Games chose to make such an inappropriate remark in a meeting with his employees says that he an immature person. The author could only win though only by consesus: if enough people came out to complain, then he would have a legit case. We should have in mind that the employees of Riot might like such an environment, and therefore whoever doesn't like it simply doesn't belong there.
hokobomo 8y ago
tl;dr: sjw atempt at shitstorming over literally nothing was largely ignored, ended in leaving riot, and now he's throwing shit at them
washadjeffmad 8y ago
"On a personal level, I feel very alone and "unsafe" at work, having to watch what I say around whom and always be filtering what I say based on how it might be misinterpreted or misused." An interesting quote by the author, referring to himself. His tale went the long way around to being in total understanding with his former colleagues and employers, except he still seems to be viewing himself in a somewhat special, if not superior, light. He 1) gave his colleagues examples of how he thought their behavior should be, 2) gave them every opportunity to change their behavior to what he expected, 3) challenged them on what their standards of humor were, 4) brought in others on his concerns to witness them, 5) had a fear of potential liability or reprisal over something he felt could not be compromised on, 6) decided that he wasn't a good culture fit. I don't know that the irony ever struck him along the way. And I wonder, did he start out wanting to be martyred, or was it a decision he made somewhere further down the line?
koonsolo 8y ago
It doesn't surprise me that this comes straight from the top leadership. I worked in varies companies (maybe too many). But there was 1 things that was always clear: the company culture always reflects the top leadership. I also once wanted to change something within a company, and had the support of various other managers. We were all pushing hard for the best of the entire company. But then I learned something: you can't change the top management, and you can't change the top managements opinion. Either accept it, or move on. All of us moved on to other jobs, and the company went bust a few years later. When I read the recent stories about Riot Games, I knew it was trickled down from top management. It always is. They define the company culture more than you would imagine.

225 points by jlward4th 8y ago

cafard 8y ago

Geezer here: can somebody explain to me the offensiveness of the iceberg tee shirt?

danmg 8y ago

TL;DR: Hyper sensitive employee throws a tantrum after someone makes a play on words. Good riddance.

anon5432111 8y ago
I'd say there's certainly a lot more to take away from this article then just that. It is a specific example for how Riot may inadvertently be harming their culture through blindspots management may not realize. It demonstrates how personal values collide with leadership and the challenges of standing by our values. Most importantly, it highlights how people are affected and hurt in this kind of environment.
- danmg 8y ago
  Ok, Berry. If you want to defend your own blog spam at least have the courage to do it under your own name.
  - dang 8y ago
    Attacking other users will get you banned here. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

draw_down 8y ago

I hate our industry so bad.

anonymousturtle 8y ago

I work in sales, not gaming. Maybe there is harassment at Riot Games, however sayings like "no doesn't necessarily mean no" is part of a sales mindset. It is not condoning rape, it is saying that just because the customer says no doesn't mean you should give up. Sales takes some persistence to see if you can get them to say yes. I imagine that is what the recruiter was saying, that just because a candidate says no, does not mean you should take it and give up. That does not mean you should "rape" them, which in this analogy would either be forcing them to buy from you, or forcing them to work for you, without consent. That is obviously not going to happen. It just means that you need to keep trying to get to yes, because you're going to hear no a lot, and some of those nos will later become yeses. Just because you interpreted that saying as being related to rape doesn't make it a bad saying. It likely just means you're unfamiliar with sales, and reading something else into it. If you do a search for: no doesn't mean no, you will find a ton of sales material on it. For example off the top of a search: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gtyq6Lyt5Vc https://youtube.com/watch?v=gtyq6Lyt5Vc https://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Always-Mean-Influencing-Cooperation/dp/0615515231 https://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Always-Mean-Influencing-Cooper...

commandlinefan 8y ago
Yeah, that just seemed to me like somebody looking for trouble where there was really none to be found.
AmericanChopper 8y ago
Start With No by Jim Camp, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss are two very good books on how to use/work with "No" in negotiations.
rizwan 8y ago
In the context of sales, you can have a conversation about perseverance and not taking no for an answer. However: > At the end of that example, Brandon laughed and said, “I was about to say something.” He paused, and then went on to say, “No doesn’t necessarily mean no.” Brandon _changed_ the context into something offensive and then made the joke. This was an attempt at rape joke. He even prepped the audience for it by laughing and saying, "I wasn't going to say this, but..."

orf 8y ago

Thanks for the interesting read. Clearly there was a culture clash and that can take a terrible toll on a person - if you've invested a lot into a company should you adapt to them, even if it's against what you believe is right? At what point does the compensation or sunk costs make adapting easier? I'm sure that's more common (and not always related to toxicity) than people think. The head of the company made an incredibly poor play on words by mocking a popular anti-rape slogan, by anyone's judgement. Sure, it's perhaps a sales slogan, but context matters. And by this account it's pretty clear what he was doing and what he was saying. That being said, this is the only account I've read and there is always another side to the story. But it takes a lot of guts to stand up for what you believe in and the author clearly believed Mark crossed his line. Right or wrong, bravo for not being swallowed up.

Sumaso 8y ago

I wonder if the culture has changed since riot did its whole "People who are toxic in game are toxic in the workplace" and axed 25% of its OG staff. Edit: https://rework.withgoogle.com/case-studies/riot-games-assessing-toxicity/ https://rework.withgoogle.com/case-studies/riot-games-assess...

tomjakubowski 8y ago
> and axed 25% of its OG staff. That's not what the article says at all. It says that 25% of the staff fired in the year prior to the experiment would have been given the "toxic" label had they been subject to the experiment rather than fired for whatever reason. Most of the employees labeled "toxic" were, as you might expect, younger and junior, with less experience in "the working world". The article suggests nothing about some huge portion of Riot's "OG" staff being fired by this policy. > Riot looked at the preceding 12 months of gameplay of every employee and discovered there was a correlation between in-game and in-Riot toxicity. They determined that 25% of employees who had been let go in the previous year were players with unusually high in-game toxicity
lliamander 8y ago
Note that the article you cite also reports Riot as being one of the best places to work (according to Fortune) and indeed explicitly makes the claim that it is not a toxic environment. It sounds more like the wanted to reduce the turn-over of their hiring process by pre-screening candidates for behavior, rather than dealing with a systemic problem in their organization. It could be that the results of the re:work article were glossing over unaddressed toxic behavior (i.e. crude language) but it could also be that they were targeting different kinds of toxic behavior. Now, I wouldn't use the kind of language described by the OP, nor do I think I would feel especially comfortable working in an environment that did. However, I can conceive of other kinds of behavior (with regard to playing the game) that they might have been looking for, including: * being a "lone wolf" and generally not cooperating with teammates * persistently blaming others for one's own failings * taking undue credit for successes * rage quiting, or otherwise being a sore loser * trolling others rather than actually playing the game EDIT: fix formatting

poisonarena 8y ago

"So, when people would say things to the group like “the other team raped us because our mid kept jungling,” I would attempt to reflect back more appropriate language by saying back to them “so you’re saying your team lost because you weren’t working together.” I can’t say that I think it had much impact, but I figured this was the long game, and slow and steady would win the race. Cultural change requires perseverance and consistency over a prolonged period of time, right?" As a Colombian guy, all these fuss over using certain words is really a problem when there are no other problems to be solved.. When you are are lucky to go to nice school, get paid lots of money, and work at a job in a really fun environment, and really, compared to our standards a perfect life, when you don't have problems, you create them.. If I tried to explain the type of problems this guy is having working at Riot Games to my friends or colleagues they would think it is absolutely ridiculous. Why would he work there if he was not expecting that? I have played LoL and this is how people being friendly talk to eachother, its not about hating women or something.. I wish I had problems like that.. You can't understand how hard it is for me to comprehend leaving a place of work that seems like heaven because some small language offends you..

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xtracto 8y ago
I know where you are coming from. I myself being from Mexico find the "political correctness" trend happening in the USA quite interesting. I used to work for a company that had HQ in California and offices down in Mexico. The head of HR was horrified when she visited the offices in Mexico and saw the interaction between colleagues... of particular interesting to her was that people were hugging each other!. She instructed our Country Manager to ask us not to hug each other. Of course everybody laughed when this was mentioned during an internal office meeting. It is the same problem as with the "Puto" chant of Mexicans during soccer games. Sure, literaly it is a homophogic connocation, but in practice it is used just to show animosity to the goalkeeper. It does not mean that 5000 people believe the male goalkeeper preffers to have sexual relationships with other men... they don't care.

lucidone 8y ago

It is imperative more members of tech organizations consciously decide to act in ways that are respectful, inclusive and professional, such that environments like the one described are no longer the norm. Any leadership rejecting this is indicative of their inability to grow up and be adults. We aren't in high school anymore.

simplysimple 8y ago
It's pretty ridiculous to me that this even needs to be said. "We need to make a conscious effort to be professional in a professional environment". What is happening to our culture...
- Barrin92 8y ago
  >What is happening to our culture.. In this case I feel it's a particularly bad combination of the environment of a video game company and young male employees coming directly out of college, which especially in the US seems to be daycare for adults. No part of the pipeline seems to teach these individuals what it means to behave professionally in a workplace environment, and often software companies do indirectly promote it by purposefully mixing up private and work-life (drinking at work, casual attitude, no hierarchies etc..) As much as people lament corporate culture these days, I prefer it a great deal to the arrangement described in the post.
  - JimboOmega 8y ago
    Also, bear in mind that a lot of these companies are founded or led by very young men who might not even have gotten through college (let alone have any actual experience what it means to be professional in a professional context) With leadership that has no experience, what do you really expect?
    - bigiain 8y ago
      I still expect some dignity and respect for coworkers and other people in general. Buy hey, Zuck and Elon don't have any - and they're the role models de jour, right?

cal5k 8y ago

I'd like to ask a provocative question: if this was always the culture at Riot, why are people who joined the company surprised by it? Would it be wrong for people to self-select into a workplace that was tolerant of such jokes, knowing that it would not be totally inclusive? At some point if you have enough employees leadership needs to grow the hell up - but it doesn't exactly surprise me to learn that game developers use language at work that anyone with gamer friends has certainly heard in private.

badloginagain 8y ago
Because they don't say "We do rape jokes. Be cool with that." in the interview process.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  No one is owed a complete lack of unpleasant surprises in their life.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Twirrim 8y ago
How would you know before taking the job that that was the culture? Would you expect it to come up in the interview somehow? People are generally on good behaviour when candidates are being shown around (which aptly emphasises that they know certain behaviour is wrong)
acdha 8y ago
Most people are going to assume certain baseline standards at a large company. Maybe it’s not some big conservative financial firm but you’d be excused for thinking things like rape jokes are universally unapproved.

klagermkii 8y ago

While I'm not going to condone those kinds of comments in the workforce or elsewhere, I'm not quite sure what the general justification is for putting "rape analogies" on such a pedestal compared to other major crimes. Murder - "That went so badly, we just got slaughtered in that meeting" Rape - "If we aren't careful the competition's going to rape us" Theft - "We need to put in a plan to steal their customers ASAP" What throws me is all of those are Big Bad Things, especially murder, but I don't feel like there would be anywhere nearly the same kind of pushback to anything except making a rape analogy. Maybe a slavery analogy would do it as well? People have gone through terrible experiences where someone they love has been murdered etc, so I'm not sure it's just about the level of trauma it can induce.

jrhurst 8y ago
I think that individuals might have more likely personally survived the trauma of rape. So it more likely going to be an asshole thing to say. It'd be like, "We're gonna smash the competition so hard they have PTSD." to room where 30% are Iraqi war vets likely insulting to some of them.
jonny_eh 8y ago
For the same reason you shouldn't casually joke about the Holocaust, it's a HIGHLY emotional/sensitive topic. It's easy for guys to joke about it, but for women it's an all too real threat they have to constantly worry about.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I think there are two things going on here. First, the general assumption is that rape is a gendered thing and that treating jokes about it as socially acceptable behavior helps to oppress women in specific. I'm a woman and I've done a fair bit of research on the topic. I don't think it helps to use this framing. When I talk about my opinions, I am often accused of being a rape apologist. Women often perceive me as the enemy. Many of them seem to want to preserve some special victim card just for women rather than acknowledge that lots of men are also sexually assaulted, though it typically is not legally defined as rape because in many jurisdictions the legal definition of rape does specify that it is something only done to a woman. Nonetheless, men who are sodomized against their will in prison will say they were raped. The word encapsulates something that no other word quite captures. Second, joking about being slaughtered in the meeting probably in no way increases the risk of actual physical violence per se, much less murder, in an otherwise civilized environment. But letting ugly and actively hostile sexual remarks become the social norm can start a slippery slope that can help make things less safe when it comes to sexual boundaries per se. Most sexual abuse doesn't begin with rape. In a worst case scenario, it culminates in rape. It begins with myriad forms of disrespecting your boundaries and that disrespect absolutely can begin as verbal disrespect and then move on to unwanted touching, etc. Rapists whittle away at your expectations of respect and act like you are being ridiculous to react negatively to their behavior. This is done very intentionally and persistently. People who stand idly by and do nothing as they watch things go down this slippery slope are complicit, whether they realize it or not. It can't happen if other people stand up and say "No, this is not okay as a social norm." I used to be a lot more affectionate and expressive than I am. But I did a lot of research and, these days, I try hard to err on the side of treating other people with respect first and foremost. I don't always get it right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm too aware of how this stuff works to not feel that it needs to be taken seriously.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago

This was extremely satisfying to read. I burst out laughing toward the end. I hope tone policing psychopaths continue to completely obliterate themselves like this.

robinduckett 8y ago

I applied for a job at Riot Games a few years back, after I came out of hospital following my appendix bursting. I was still in pretty bad shape, and my initial phone interview went poorly, mostly due to the fact that I couldn't breathe properly as a result of a partially collapsed lung. The hiring guy was particularly pushy, and didn't really take no for an answer, encouraging me to take the phone interview anyway. That's when I decided not to bother. Probably blacklisted from ever working there in future, but having read this article, I know I definitely won't be wanting to anyway.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago
He helpfully encouraged you to do the bare minimum necessary to get the job you supposedly wanted. You’re implying that this is the same as rape.

randrews 8y ago

I've never played anything by Riot Games, but based on this article, I think I'm going to start.

ahansen 8y ago

"The head of Communications said that we were edgy, and that if we as Riot started chipping away those edges, we would become shapeless and bland, like EA or Blizzard. I responded that if we told everyone starting today there could be no more rape jokes in presentations and talks, it would still be a multi-year effort for us to no longer be edgy.” By the sounds of it Riot is in a very deep culture hole. I hope they can turn it around in the years to come.

Apocryphon 8y ago
Edginess isn't even a successful way to make games. Remember Kixeye? They don't seem to be a mobile games leader despite their edgy marketing and their racism lawsuits. Rockstar Games is like the only major game developer that embraces edginess, and even they have matured in recent years.
taurath 8y ago
Riot isn't regarded by anyone as edgy, because they police their players speech, apparently more strongly than they do internal speech. The most common refrain in the reddit thread on this article is "Wait, they thought they were edgy?" https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9aslos/the_story_of_why_i_left_riot_games_barry_hawkins/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/9aslos/the...

m3mpp 8y ago

From virtue signaling to virtue resigning. I wonder what's the next step, virtue self-immolation? Let's keep giving berth to that kind of sensitivity in the work place and very soon, all the people will be exactly the same, bland, smooth, completely passive people. The creative, the geniuses of this world are always full of spikes, full of defects, against the norm. Well, I guess we will just have to do without them from now on...

codyb 8y ago
Isn't quitting your job to stand up for something just about one of the most individualistic things you could do?
- m3mpp 8y ago
  There's standing up for your value and there's drama. This is drama. This is "look at how good I am". You stand up for your values by going to the guy and tell him "you're an asshole for joking about that, and since I don't work for assholes, I'm gone". That is standing up for your values. Don't you think?
  - andrewprock 8y ago
    He did stand up for his values. He went to the guy, and said that jokes like that are a problem. When the problem wasn't resolved he quit. Are you saying that because he wasn't an asshole back, that it was drama?
    - m3mpp 8y ago
      The drama is the blog post, the length, the minute details of everything, like if it was so big, so important. It's just a guy who said a stupid joke. If you feel so strongly, confront him for real, not with a bland "it's a problem" and then write a 5000 words blog post about it. Go tell him he's a piece of shit, something the guy could actually use to adjust his behavior. My 2 cents.

Apocryphon 8y ago

Does anyone have a good reason for why workers in the video game industry should not be unionized? Because if Susan Fowler and wage-fixing don't convince you that the tech industry as a whole shouldn't have labor unions, what about all of these horror stories coming out of games?

rndmize 8y ago

> So, when people would say things to the group like “the other team raped us because our mid kept jungling,” I would attempt to reflect back more appropriate language by saying back to them “so you’re saying your team lost because you weren’t working together.” I've noticed this in my gaming group and in the gaming culture at large. There's been this integration of much more sexual terms in the last three or four years - "raped", "cucked", "my butthole", "gaping", "shoved down the throat", etc. I feel like 10 years ago the words/phrases were less offensive - "destroyed", "wrecked", "owned", "dumpstered", "get shit on", etc. I'm not really sure why this is, but I'm not a fan of the change. It feels like in the last half a decade stuff that used to be limited to the uglier parts of the web has bled out across a much greater area and become more accepted.

taurath 8y ago
10 years ago it 12 year olds on xbox-live shouting as many overtly racist terms as they had ever heard in their lives. Now thats generally going to get you banned, at least. I don't honestly think its gotten worse. The stupid thing is if you go and play League of Legends and say most of those sexual terms you will be BANNED or at least muted for a week. And yet its cool to say that in the office.
- bigiain 8y ago
  Exactly. Some of those kids are now 22 year old "team leads" or "managers" or "founders". And way too many of them haven't grown up at all.
zumu 8y ago
> I feel like 10 years ago the words/phrases were less offensive - "destroyed", "wrecked", "owned", "dumpstered", "get shit on", etc. Eh, I've been gaming since the 90's, and in my experience it's more or less the same. Honestly, with the proliferation of in-game voice and reporting tools it's probably gotten a bit better, esp. in regards to racist name calling.
- Jach 8y ago

rboyd 8y ago

the whole thing sounds crazy but I'm genuinely confused why the author didn't take a stand at the crazy offensive statements that were shared earlier in the article. is it because the female colleagues took issue? if someone at my place of work used some of the language about my wife, etc, I would be trying to get it on audio and have that person terminated.

rectang 8y ago
It is hard and risky to take a stand against the prevailing culture. I completely understand it when people hesitate. There are techniques to do it less confrontationally, as suggested by the poster elsethread who urged giving people the "opportunity for personal growth". I'd argue that the author of the article did an admirable job of handling things, under extreme duress -- even though he was not ultimately successful. There's also a place for in-your-face obnoxious confrontation (e.g. ACT-UP), civil disobedience (breaking the law when the law is unjust), and even violence (American Revolution). None of those are the easy path.
- rboyd 8y ago
  While I agree with everything you've written, it seems like taking a stand against the executive would require a lot more courage than wrecking someone lower in the ranks.
  - rectang 8y ago
    Well, rather than argue the finer points... let me just join you in a toast to those who do stand up!

andrewmcwatters 8y ago

It's clear to me that there are two distinct camps in scenarios like this: There's one camp (camp A) whose cultural norms contain offensive practices to those outside of the culture, and another camp (camp B) who perceives those norms at face value, without context and intent, for their offense. Another poster here used The F Word (South Park) as a great example of this. > This behavior of male-on-male aggression seemed to be a mechanism of asserting control. I don't know where Barry gets this, and it's written like a National Geographic-esque piece of a man trying to understand the actions and intents of animals in the Serengeti. He doesn't "get" them, cannot establish trust, and as a result can't influence anyone in this piece's mind about how these actions are perceived by others outside of camp A. > now I am having to speak to you like an exasperated camp counselor. This is reinforced by statements like this. This isn't edifying. This is belittling, and completely ineffective. Barry's downfall here is that he believes this is "the long game, and slow and steady would win the race." He's correct, but his execution is fruitless. Instead, what about trying to befriend these people, and then have down to earth dialogues such as, "I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but maybe we could tone it down with the rape stuff, my dudes. It's kinda not cool." I'm sure there are better methods for getting the idea across, but ultimately you change people's hearts and minds by appealing to them and winning them over.

rectang 8y ago
It's interesting to think about better and worse ways to move people... but in the end, Barry isn't the root of the problem. It's ultimately the people in power at Riot Games who have the responsibility to change.
InclinedPlane 8y ago
The entire industry and gaming culture in general has been having the "let's tone down the rape jokes, guys" conversation for years and years. At this point if it's part of your corporate culture in 2018 then it means it's something you value.
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  Of course from an organizational perspective, it's not sufficient to address this in interpersonal relationships. My bottom line is that if you're going to attempt this, which is more relevant for most people, that you can't expect to belittle people and think you're going to "win" them over.

DataJunkie 8y ago

This is a bit more general... I worked there for a very short time as a consultant and I remember Barry. I remember being astonished at some of the things I saw and heard at that company and I am surprised it's not them getting the scrutiny and instead the larger tech companies. Working at Riot Games was like working in a frat house where you get paid, and I mean many of the bad parts of living in a frat house. Of the places I've worked, Riot had to have the lowest median age (early 20s), which probably contributes to the problem. The guys could be assholes, but I fear that some of the women, being young and this being their first job and an amazing opportunity, get disillusioned into thinking that this behavior is normal in industry and that is really sad. I am surprised not more have spoken out. Riot (and other gaming companies, not just Riot) has some of the bro-est culture out there and it's going to cost them in a lawsuit, just give it time.

shriver 8y ago
I think if you look at the incentives in that situation it's very understandable to not speak out. If you're a good employee working at Riot and you have a problem with the culture you have two options: Speak out or leave. If you speak out it can be incredibly damaging, you'll almost certainly destroy your career at riot because you'll be actively attacking people you work with. You stand a good chance of getting a reputation in the industry. The likelihood of changing the culture is microscopic - especially if you find out it's the CEO providing the lead in this behaviour. And if you succeed? Your career at Riot is still probably damaged, Riot's culture will be like any of the many other companies you could work at. During the time you're fighting for that change it's likely to be incredibly emotionally draining and you're bound to lose some friends. If you leave, you have literally none of those downsides, you've still got a good career and you can go off to one of the many other companies that are just as successful without those downsides. So to speak up you need to be incredibly principled AND you have to have some very deep stake in making THIS particular multinational corporation better. I think it makes perfect sense not to speak out for the vast majority of people.
- DataJunkie 8y ago
  Yes, but if you're not interested in continuing in gaming, you can speak out and then quit.

laretluval 8y ago

https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Viker 8y ago

Please teach your children that perseverance, trying hard, again and again. Does not pay off. And should be looked down apon. Teach them that when they face resistance they should just say ok and walk away in the other way, because it is not for them. Teach them to be compliant and subservient. Teach them that weakness of character and self respect are not for them.

subjectsigma 8y ago

I am confused as to why this specific issue has to be so slathered in a gross layer of politics and 'progressive' thinking. Tons of people in the thread (as usual) are discussing it as a left vs right, men vs women, libertarian vs authoritarian, young vs old, etc. kind of issue. Why the fuck can't we all just agree that what they said was inappropriate and warranted professional consequences? Everyone deserves basic human decency and a professional attitude in their workplace, regardless of demographic, and thus it is silly to have the first sentence of your complaint be "As a white man..." or "As a woman..." To do so is to constantly compare the value of someone's experience over other experiences, when the answer is too obvious for this to be necessary. If you were talking about society or public policy it would make more sense I suppose, but this is not a society, it's a game company with a terrible culture. I think part of it might be that HNers (myself included, to be honest) like to hear themselves talk and have a lot to say that some of these comments come about.

darepublic 8y ago

> There was more talk about culture and some people being too sensitive. The head of Legal spoke up again, saying that it wasn’t that hearing guys say the stupid stuff they did all day made her sad or upset, it just made her want to punch them in the throat because she was sick of having to hear it all the time. I really liked that part. ^ Isn't it hypocritical to crusade against certain types of insensitive speech and yet enjoy casual references to violence against males?

defkev 8y ago
Absolutely, the traditional liberal double standard. > Don't do as i do, do as i say. But hush now, people here don't like somebody stating the obvious. You end up hell banned, or worse, who knows.

bsaul 8y ago

I wonder if people advocating for extreme sensitivy on sexual jokes at the workplace also ban rap music at the workplace because of the lyrics.

foozed 8y ago
I wouldn't say that having a problem with rape jokes at big presentations that make it into the recruiting material qualifies as "extreme sensitivity on sexual jokes"...
- bsaul 8y ago
  Do you think anybody in that riot story thought rape was fine ? Either the guy that did the joke, or the HR that wrote it on the slide ? It is a lousy joke, with bad taste, and it sure would offend anyone who had any real life experience of a rape ( like probably half the joke woukd probably hurt somebody somewhere for some reason) . But that’s all it is. I don’t think this should be confused with actual sexual harrasment ( which maybe also took place at Riot, i don’t know).
Jach 8y ago
Just the rap music that isn't from a children's movie, harmless showing off of mostly meaningless wordplay, or a fusion with pop focused on subjects like love and breakups. Maybe certain politically woke songs will be tolerated, if they're by white rappers. At least they won't ban headphones.

chillidoor 8y ago

>Approximately 160 people, all the hiring managers at Riot at the time Just how big was Riot Games that they need 160 hiring managers? The only big game they made was League of Legends, right?

rounce 8y ago
Perhaps it reflects employee turnover rather than the company size.
- chillidoor 8y ago
  zimpenfish mentioned that there are 2500 people working at the company so 160 hiring managers makes much more sense now.
zimpenfish 8y ago
I think "hiring manager" just means "anyone who wants to hire someone" - which would include pretty much everyone above peon level. [ Riot Games have 2500 employees, most in the same place (per https://www.inc.com/magazine/201612/burt-helm-lindsay-blakely/company-of-the-year-riot-games.html https://www.inc.com/magazine/201612/burt-helm-lindsay-blakel...) which makes 160 people with hiring privileges seem reasonable. ]
- chillidoor 8y ago
  Ah, 2500. That's ~15 people per hiring manager so you're right, that does seem more reasonable.

axilmar 8y ago

Respect to one's employees should be total. There shouldn't be respect up to what the majority finds respectful. That the CEO of Riot Games chose to make such an inappropriate remark in a meeting with his employees says that he an immature person. The author could only win though only by consesus: if enough people came out to complain, then he would have a legit case. We should have in mind that the employees of Riot might like such an environment, and therefore whoever doesn't like it simply doesn't belong there.

hokobomo 8y ago

tl;dr: sjw atempt at shitstorming over literally nothing was largely ignored, ended in leaving riot, and now he's throwing shit at them

washadjeffmad 8y ago

"On a personal level, I feel very alone and "unsafe" at work, having to watch what I say around whom and always be filtering what I say based on how it might be misinterpreted or misused." An interesting quote by the author, referring to himself. His tale went the long way around to being in total understanding with his former colleagues and employers, except he still seems to be viewing himself in a somewhat special, if not superior, light. He 1) gave his colleagues examples of how he thought their behavior should be, 2) gave them every opportunity to change their behavior to what he expected, 3) challenged them on what their standards of humor were, 4) brought in others on his concerns to witness them, 5) had a fear of potential liability or reprisal over something he felt could not be compromised on, 6) decided that he wasn't a good culture fit. I don't know that the irony ever struck him along the way. And I wonder, did he start out wanting to be martyred, or was it a decision he made somewhere further down the line?

koonsolo 8y ago

It doesn't surprise me that this comes straight from the top leadership. I worked in varies companies (maybe too many). But there was 1 things that was always clear: the company culture always reflects the top leadership. I also once wanted to change something within a company, and had the support of various other managers. We were all pushing hard for the best of the entire company. But then I learned something: you can't change the top management, and you can't change the top managements opinion. Either accept it, or move on. All of us moved on to other jobs, and the company went bust a few years later. When I read the recent stories about Riot Games, I knew it was trickled down from top management. It always is. They define the company culture more than you would imagine.