4 ms·

exaggerating a bit? bitcoin syncs within couple hours unless you run it on the computer you'd gain your decades of experience on :) every mobile bitcoin app is

exaggerating a bit? bitcoin syncs within couple hours unless you run it on the computer you'd gain your decades of experience on :) every mobile bitcoin app is a lightweight client - it only syncs block headers, much faster but not great for large sums of money. so for a person that can't tell "browser" from "internet" there's no difference between introducing them to paypal or to bitcoin - it's just an app on your phone and you can press the "send" button.

nebolo 8y ago
Yes, but for that person the all advantages of Bitcoin that are typically mentioned (trust-less, secure, etc.) go out of the window.
- keymone 8y ago
  trustlessness goes out a window a bit. everything else stays the same.
andrewmcwatters 8y ago
> it only syncs block headers I think what the parent comment is trying to say is: who cares about this? Not even many of us technical people care. It's like saying, "Just get the mobile app, it just synchroaligns the ledger manifest distributable intra-block metadata! Duh! Simple!" It's not accessible to people, and not even engineers who aren't familiar with the tech. I don't need to understand the minting process to know how to use a dollar, but for some reason the Bitcoin community expects you to understand blocks, difficulty, ledgers, exchanges, and many other concepts that are relatively advanced and take time and effort to understand. A dollar is a dollar. This continually seems to fall on deaf ears.
- keymone 8y ago
  this is just weird.. i was addressing GP's concern about performance of syncing. of course i wouldn't bother explaining how bitcoin works and what are the modes of operation and performance differences between them to a lay person. they don't care. they care that it's just an app. so what exactly did you want to say?
  - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
    It's missing the forest for the trees.
smsm42 8y ago
With paypal, if someone gives you trouble, you can call support and reverse the payment. And they have protection policies. With bitcoin, if anything happens, you're the idiot who bought into the hype and now getting what was coming you you. For consumer, there's a huge difference - that's why "ZERO FRAUD LIABILITY" is written on every credit card conditions in big friendly letters. Are there any zero fraud liability bitcoin instruments? Are they even possible?
- keymone 8y ago
  paypal is a product built on top of existing currency. bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product. there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd. one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution but also limiting the influence middleman (paypal) has - can't run away with your money, can't block the transaction against will of both participants, etc. this tech is a decade old but it's still in it's infancy especially regarding UX side.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product I can't, I don't have time. No, I understand you mean "somebody might build" - but so far, nobody did. When it changes, the evaluation changes too. So far, we aren't there by no means. > there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd Sure. How many of them are necessary to a typical credit card/cash user? > one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution You seem to be under impression dispute resolution is a technical problem in search of suitable algorithm. It's not - it is a social/service problem which needs careful balance between trust to various parties and careful calculation of how expensive each tweak to trust levels would be and how to keep fraud in check without pissing off too many people. It's not an algorithmic problem (at least not until we have strong AI). > can't run away with your money Which also means no possibility to curtail fraud - if the middle-man can't reverse transaction, what prevents me from selling you an iphone, sending a brick instead and leaving with the money? Or, alternatively, what prevents me from buying an iphone and claiming I got a brick instead, and getting my money back and a free iphone? > can't block the transaction against will of both participants Which also means feds close it after a month because it is being used to trade drugs. And seize all the funds there (if you're adventurous, you can sue the federal government for the return of the funds - maybe in 10 years you'll even succeed!)

nebolo 8y ago

Yes, but for that person the all advantages of Bitcoin that are typically mentioned (trust-less, secure, etc.) go out of the window.

keymone 8y ago
trustlessness goes out a window a bit. everything else stays the same.

andrewmcwatters 8y ago

> it only syncs block headers I think what the parent comment is trying to say is: who cares about this? Not even many of us technical people care. It's like saying, "Just get the mobile app, it just synchroaligns the ledger manifest distributable intra-block metadata! Duh! Simple!" It's not accessible to people, and not even engineers who aren't familiar with the tech. I don't need to understand the minting process to know how to use a dollar, but for some reason the Bitcoin community expects you to understand blocks, difficulty, ledgers, exchanges, and many other concepts that are relatively advanced and take time and effort to understand. A dollar is a dollar. This continually seems to fall on deaf ears.

keymone 8y ago
this is just weird.. i was addressing GP's concern about performance of syncing. of course i wouldn't bother explaining how bitcoin works and what are the modes of operation and performance differences between them to a lay person. they don't care. they care that it's just an app. so what exactly did you want to say?
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  It's missing the forest for the trees.

smsm42 8y ago

With paypal, if someone gives you trouble, you can call support and reverse the payment. And they have protection policies. With bitcoin, if anything happens, you're the idiot who bought into the hype and now getting what was coming you you. For consumer, there's a huge difference - that's why "ZERO FRAUD LIABILITY" is written on every credit card conditions in big friendly letters. Are there any zero fraud liability bitcoin instruments? Are they even possible?

keymone 8y ago
paypal is a product built on top of existing currency. bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product. there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd. one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution but also limiting the influence middleman (paypal) has - can't run away with your money, can't block the transaction against will of both participants, etc. this tech is a decade old but it's still in it's infancy especially regarding UX side.
- smsm42 8y ago
  > bitcoin is a currency on top of which you can build paypal-like product I can't, I don't have time. No, I understand you mean "somebody might build" - but so far, nobody did. When it changes, the evaluation changes too. So far, we aren't there by no means. > there are many things trivially done in bitcoin that are absolutely impossible in bare usd Sure. How many of them are necessary to a typical credit card/cash user? > one can use multisig escrow accounts to implement paypal-like dispute resolution You seem to be under impression dispute resolution is a technical problem in search of suitable algorithm. It's not - it is a social/service problem which needs careful balance between trust to various parties and careful calculation of how expensive each tweak to trust levels would be and how to keep fraud in check without pissing off too many people. It's not an algorithmic problem (at least not until we have strong AI). > can't run away with your money Which also means no possibility to curtail fraud - if the middle-man can't reverse transaction, what prevents me from selling you an iphone, sending a brick instead and leaving with the money? Or, alternatively, what prevents me from buying an iphone and claiming I got a brick instead, and getting my money back and a free iphone? > can't block the transaction against will of both participants Which also means feds close it after a month because it is being used to trade drugs. And seize all the funds there (if you're adventurous, you can sue the federal government for the return of the funds - maybe in 10 years you'll even succeed!)