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I find your comment ironic. Consider that you are stating that everything must, at some level, be like humans. This is the most clear cut example of anthrocentr

I find your comment ironic. Consider that you are stating that everything must, at some level, be like humans. This is the most clear cut example of anthrocentric thinking I can imagine! This view is also contradicted by experiment which shows that creatures that are extremely genetically similar to us, still respond very differently to various stimuli thus making the logical view that they indeed do experience the same stimuli in different ways. Beyond experiment I think it also fails through basic logic as well. Evolution dictates what we become, and we can see the vast variety of changes that evolution has forked among us. Go back far enough and even humans and plants share a common ancestor. To this day a banana shares about 60% of its DNA with a human! But of course it's not just what's on the outside the evolution changes. The way things act, behave, perceive, think, and so on is also controlled by evolution. To assume that somehow everything must, at some level, have internal mechanisms similar to a human is also just not very logical. It'd be like suggesting that everything must have opposable thumbs, because we do. Of course we know that to be very false, but the only reason your statement is not immediately similarly absurd is because you're referencing things that cannot be directly observed.

gepi79 8y ago
To assume that animals that behave as if they had emotions actually have emotions is not anthrocentric but intelligent thinking. This not like the question whether Earth orbits the sun or the sun orbits Earth in case you do not know the mass of the objects. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain... It is absurd and unscientific to think that animals have no emotional awareness despite the emotional reptilian complex and the limbic system and a different neocortex for unemotional intelligence. Besides the problem of consciousness is far from being solved. https://www.cell.com/trends/neurosciences/fulltext/S0166-2236(18)30141-3 https://www.cell.com/trends/neurosciences/fulltext/S0166-223... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIooLxk2jxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIooLxk2jxs
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  The post I was responding to stated 'animals similar to us must experience similar emotions.' You ignore this and then straw man me into suggesting that animals have no response system whatsoever, which is obviously absurd. And in the process there you've also shifted the goal posts from similar emotional response to any response whatsoever. Classy. For fish there is 0 doubt that whatever they experience, it is radically different than what humans do. On top of this I would generally not waste time on media articles for scientific issues. An interesting overview of the state of 'fish pain' studies is available here. [1] PSU also offers CiteSeerX as a means of finding papers on a given topic. This [1] is a search for fish pain providing further reading. As usual, and especially if you choose to use services more susceptible to spam/blogging including Google Scholar, you should try to isolate the papers down to those that have been published and peer reviewed. [1] - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/faf.12010 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/faf.12010 [2] - http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=title%3Afish+pain http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=title%3Afish+pain
  - gepi79 8y ago
    Obviously we read something different in our messages. Anyway: - Orcas are mammals and not fish. - Your study talks about fish. So does the first article I mentioned. "My" article mentions nociceptors and opioids (pain killers) and an experiment with painkiller lidocaine that suggests that fish feel some kind of pain. Note that both fish and mammals have nociceptors and opioids as chemicals in the brain. That fishes eat after surgery does not mean that fishes do not feel pain. Some people eat as response to stress and fear. Quote from "my" article (I guess finfish means true fish in this context): In 2013, the American Veterinary Medical Association published new guidelines for the euthanasia of animals, which included the following statements: “Suggestions that finfish responses to pain merely represent simple reflexes have been refuted. … the preponderance of accumulated evidence supports the position that finfish should be accorded the same considerations as terrestrial vertebrates in regard to relief from pain.” Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/#CqYzmrX77rtzXkeS.99 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain... Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

gepi79 8y ago

To assume that animals that behave as if they had emotions actually have emotions is not anthrocentric but intelligent thinking. This not like the question whether Earth orbits the sun or the sun orbits Earth in case you do not know the mass of the objects. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain... It is absurd and unscientific to think that animals have no emotional awareness despite the emotional reptilian complex and the limbic system and a different neocortex for unemotional intelligence. Besides the problem of consciousness is far from being solved. https://www.cell.com/trends/neurosciences/fulltext/S0166-2236(18)30141-3 https://www.cell.com/trends/neurosciences/fulltext/S0166-223... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIooLxk2jxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIooLxk2jxs

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
The post I was responding to stated 'animals similar to us must experience similar emotions.' You ignore this and then straw man me into suggesting that animals have no response system whatsoever, which is obviously absurd. And in the process there you've also shifted the goal posts from similar emotional response to any response whatsoever. Classy. For fish there is 0 doubt that whatever they experience, it is radically different than what humans do. On top of this I would generally not waste time on media articles for scientific issues. An interesting overview of the state of 'fish pain' studies is available here. [1] PSU also offers CiteSeerX as a means of finding papers on a given topic. This [1] is a search for fish pain providing further reading. As usual, and especially if you choose to use services more susceptible to spam/blogging including Google Scholar, you should try to isolate the papers down to those that have been published and peer reviewed. [1] - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/faf.12010 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/faf.12010 [2] - http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=title%3Afish+pain http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search?q=title%3Afish+pain
- gepi79 8y ago
  Obviously we read something different in our messages. Anyway: - Orcas are mammals and not fish. - Your study talks about fish. So does the first article I mentioned. "My" article mentions nociceptors and opioids (pain killers) and an experiment with painkiller lidocaine that suggests that fish feel some kind of pain. Note that both fish and mammals have nociceptors and opioids as chemicals in the brain. That fishes eat after surgery does not mean that fishes do not feel pain. Some people eat as response to stress and fear. Quote from "my" article (I guess finfish means true fish in this context): In 2013, the American Veterinary Medical Association published new guidelines for the euthanasia of animals, which included the following statements: “Suggestions that finfish responses to pain merely represent simple reflexes have been refuted. … the preponderance of accumulated evidence supports the position that finfish should be accorded the same considerations as terrestrial vertebrates in regard to relief from pain.” Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/#CqYzmrX77rtzXkeS.99 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain... Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter