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Neither of those things indicate that humans have wildly different inner lives, though. A lot of these may perhaps be attributed to a combination of language de
by projektir 8y ago
Neither of those things indicate that humans have wildly different inner lives, though. A lot of these may perhaps be attributed to a combination of language development and tools usage, neither of which is really relevant to the parent's point in any way, so I don't really understand your digression.
Humans DO have a history of degrading the inner lives of animals and it's a problem. We don't even know for sure that humans are exceptional intellectually compared to gorillas in an objective sense, we're just deriving that from the aforementioned telescope example which is not scientific in the slightest.
Humans have plenty to be proud of but with things like "we're more intelligent" or "we're more emotionally developed" as opposed to "we got a lucky combination of things" I'd rather be really careful.
- emodendroket 8y agoThere's no need to resort to fancy engineering projects -- where's the animal that knows how to craft novel utterances to express new ideas, or the animal that has a sense of self? The animal that has an awareness of its own mortality? The animal that can appreciate ideas like morality? It doesn't exist.
- jahewson 8y agoYou’re literally describing dolphins: “New evidence suggests that dolphins, like elephants and the great apes, may comprehend their own mortality.” https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/do-dolphins-mourn-their-dead https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/do-dolphin...
- interfixus 8y ago> * It doesn't exist* [citatation needed]
- emodendroket 8y agoGenerally you can't really prove a negative but feel free to give counterexamples
- interfixus 8y agoOf something you claim cannot be proven, perhaps a less categorial expression than "It doesn't exist". I do believe I have seen animal examples of all three of your statements, an logically, there must have been among our ancestors, but the onus isn't really on me.
- emodendroket 8y agoLook, I can't prove that there aren't goblins either, and yet I bet you wouldn't demand I couch a statement about their existence in weak language like "to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that goblins exist."
- interfixus 8y agoYou claim the non-existence of "the animal that has a sense of self". This is unsubstatiated, to say the very least, or patently nonsense, to say a bit more. And yes you can. I use expressions all the time very much like "to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that God exists".
- emodendroket 8y agoIf it's so nonsensical surely you can find counterexamples. Animals are frequently confused by their own reflections. I never claimed that you can't use noncommittal language to dismiss things for which there is no evidence; I just don't really feel like there is any point.
- EliRivers 8y agoAnimals are frequently confused by their own reflections. While some animals see their own reflections and use them to examine parts of their own body that they could not otherwise see. Animal research has a long history of finding animals exhibiting something that has been touted as a human-only trait; the weight of experience seems to be heading towards the idea that there is no human trait exceptionalism, only a combination of various traits to various degrees. So many traits that someone has posited as the uniquely human trait has subsequently been seen in animals. Maybe one day someone will find something, but thus far the record isn't good.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- toomanybeersies 8y ago> Humans DO have a history of degrading the inner lives of animals and it's a problem Humans have enough a history of degrading the inner lives of fellow humans, let alone other animals.