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But it is beneficial to society. It keeps prices low and accessible. What good are increasing wages if it is accompanied by inflation that negates those increa

But it is beneficial to society. It keeps prices low and accessible. What good are increasing wages if it is accompanied by inflation that negates those increases? The truth is that the minimum wage worker today is able to purchase a LOT more than they could in the past. The only two costs that have gone up disproportionately are housing and healthcare. The former is due to bad government policy that encourages homeownership as an investment. The latter is due to cost disease.

aperrien 8y ago
Except for rent, which shows no sign of stopping it's climb in cities and their associated suburbs.
- malandrew 8y ago
  Rent is also tied to bad housing policy that prevents building.
- nawitus 8y ago
  The housing market is hardly an example of free market economics.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    So, what is the example then? Personally, I think free market belongs to a class of spherical cow models.
User23 8y ago
> The truth is that the minimum wage worker today is able to purchase a LOT more than they could in the past. Except for energy, housing, health care, and education. But besides that sure, android phones are cheap!
- manfredo 8y ago
  Housing, healthcare, and education are expensive because of increased demand and unwillingness or inability to expand supply (e.g. restrictions on building denser housing in a lot of desirable areas, strong social pressure to get a 4 year education). Some of them are actually exacerbated by public involvement - easy access to credit for education means universities can charge a lot more. It's not just electronics that are cheaper. Things we take for granted now - owning a refrigerator, a car, heck even things like electricity and plumbing - were out of reach for many people a matter of decades ago. Sure many of these things were made in good old 'Murica back then and created low-skilled jobs - but these products also cost a much larger percentage of the average household's available income. You're also ignoring the immense benefit that free global markets provide for countries other those in the First World. China's shift to a free market economy singlehandedly halved global poverty. We tend to index heavily on the American that needs to change fields when his job is "shipped overseas". Rarely do litanies against free markets consider those overseas - almost always in a more precarious financial position than the country that is losing low skilled jobs - who get a chance to improve their lives due to free global markets.
  - petra 8y ago
    Appliances today have much shorter lifespans than previously, so it's hard to tell if they're cheaper or more expensive.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - cm2012 8y ago
    Whatever the reasons of higher expense, key items are still pricier.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      Many of those "key" items weren't even considered "key" items a matter of decades ago, because their costs were too high for the average family and most didn't even think to expect those things. When did the notion that even every moderate high school student go to a four year university become prevalent? Certainly it was some time in the last half century. Same with electricity. Electricity and associated electronics have become so prevalent that we buy desks with USB ports, and the thought of living in an home with no electricity is practically foreign to most people. And healthcare? Infant mortality nearly halved from 1949 to 1970 (28 to 17 per 1000 live births), and has since more than halved over again (5.8). I think it's important to view the trajectory of progress not in how is lines up with how reality lines up with our expectations (because any optimistic society will - and should - strive for better), but by seeing how our reality lines with with what used to be reality.
rco8786 8y ago
> What good are increasing wages if it is accompanied by inflation that negates those increases? Nothing. But that’s not the situation we’re in. The implication that your “if” would come true is an argument against any increase in wages ever. but it assumes that we’re in some sort of equilibrium where everyone spends 100% of their money and spends it on the same things.
burfog 8y ago
Outside of space-limited desirable locations where house prices are the result of a bidding war, the problem of house prices is related to expectations and the resulting regulation. To get an FHA loan, all sorts of stuff has to be present and in good condition. Zoning requirements, building codes, and the ADA have all jacked up prices. You can't just build yourself a shack anymore. Example location: Sommerville Massachusetts, where you can't legally build the city today. Nearly everything is in violation. The same applies in Manhattan. Example feature: We now have to have arc fault interrupters and wired-together fire alarms, even if you can't stand them. For decades we got by with low-cost circuit breakers and battery-powered fire alarms. People who are living well start to see expensive things as being important, and so they feel that the features should be mandated, and it seems like only a trivial cost... but just like software bloat, it adds up over time. Sellers of the features push for it too. We end up pricing less-well-off people out of the market. I am simply prohibited from building a house that would have been good-quality construction in medieval times. I can't even build an ordinary house of the 1980s... and even last year's design is often illegal to build. There is a ratchet effect here. Requirements keep getting added, but none are ever removed.

aperrien 8y ago

Except for rent, which shows no sign of stopping it's climb in cities and their associated suburbs.

malandrew 8y ago
Rent is also tied to bad housing policy that prevents building.
nawitus 8y ago
The housing market is hardly an example of free market economics.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  So, what is the example then? Personally, I think free market belongs to a class of spherical cow models.

User23 8y ago

> The truth is that the minimum wage worker today is able to purchase a LOT more than they could in the past. Except for energy, housing, health care, and education. But besides that sure, android phones are cheap!

manfredo 8y ago
Housing, healthcare, and education are expensive because of increased demand and unwillingness or inability to expand supply (e.g. restrictions on building denser housing in a lot of desirable areas, strong social pressure to get a 4 year education). Some of them are actually exacerbated by public involvement - easy access to credit for education means universities can charge a lot more. It's not just electronics that are cheaper. Things we take for granted now - owning a refrigerator, a car, heck even things like electricity and plumbing - were out of reach for many people a matter of decades ago. Sure many of these things were made in good old 'Murica back then and created low-skilled jobs - but these products also cost a much larger percentage of the average household's available income. You're also ignoring the immense benefit that free global markets provide for countries other those in the First World. China's shift to a free market economy singlehandedly halved global poverty. We tend to index heavily on the American that needs to change fields when his job is "shipped overseas". Rarely do litanies against free markets consider those overseas - almost always in a more precarious financial position than the country that is losing low skilled jobs - who get a chance to improve their lives due to free global markets.
- petra 8y ago
  Appliances today have much shorter lifespans than previously, so it's hard to tell if they're cheaper or more expensive.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- cm2012 8y ago
  Whatever the reasons of higher expense, key items are still pricier.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    Many of those "key" items weren't even considered "key" items a matter of decades ago, because their costs were too high for the average family and most didn't even think to expect those things. When did the notion that even every moderate high school student go to a four year university become prevalent? Certainly it was some time in the last half century. Same with electricity. Electricity and associated electronics have become so prevalent that we buy desks with USB ports, and the thought of living in an home with no electricity is practically foreign to most people. And healthcare? Infant mortality nearly halved from 1949 to 1970 (28 to 17 per 1000 live births), and has since more than halved over again (5.8). I think it's important to view the trajectory of progress not in how is lines up with how reality lines up with our expectations (because any optimistic society will - and should - strive for better), but by seeing how our reality lines with with what used to be reality.

rco8786 8y ago

> What good are increasing wages if it is accompanied by inflation that negates those increases? Nothing. But that’s not the situation we’re in. The implication that your “if” would come true is an argument against any increase in wages ever. but it assumes that we’re in some sort of equilibrium where everyone spends 100% of their money and spends it on the same things.

burfog 8y ago

Outside of space-limited desirable locations where house prices are the result of a bidding war, the problem of house prices is related to expectations and the resulting regulation. To get an FHA loan, all sorts of stuff has to be present and in good condition. Zoning requirements, building codes, and the ADA have all jacked up prices. You can't just build yourself a shack anymore. Example location: Sommerville Massachusetts, where you can't legally build the city today. Nearly everything is in violation. The same applies in Manhattan. Example feature: We now have to have arc fault interrupters and wired-together fire alarms, even if you can't stand them. For decades we got by with low-cost circuit breakers and battery-powered fire alarms. People who are living well start to see expensive things as being important, and so they feel that the features should be mandated, and it seems like only a trivial cost... but just like software bloat, it adds up over time. Sellers of the features push for it too. We end up pricing less-well-off people out of the market. I am simply prohibited from building a house that would have been good-quality construction in medieval times. I can't even build an ordinary house of the 1980s... and even last year's design is often illegal to build. There is a ratchet effect here. Requirements keep getting added, but none are ever removed.