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The problem seems to be that people are willing to work for low wages. At the last company I worked for, college graduate engineers were paid about $75k startin

The problem seems to be that people are willing to work for low wages. At the last company I worked for, college graduate engineers were paid about $75k starting and they had an incredibly hard time hiring. So they raised the amount that they offered. But in low wage industries people take any job they can get at whatever wage is offered.

CapacitorSet 8y ago
How is the problem that workers accept lower wages, rather than employers proposing them?
- hayksaakian 8y ago
  Because if workers did not accept those wages their companies would not function That's what strikes and things like that are for
  - kylestlb 8y ago
    Can't really go on strike without organized labor, which requires a union or something similar. I don't think many unions for uber, amazon eats, doordash contractors exist. It's very interesting how some of the most highly paid contract-based workers in the USA have the strongest unions - actors and professional athletes.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    If workers didn’t accept those wages they would be destitute. Companies (capital) hold all of the power in our current economic system, it hasn’t always been like this in the US and isn’t in many other countries.
    - x0AC77B2 8y ago
      If I could only find work at $8/hr that is my fault. I could get a student loan and go to a trade school or study CS and make $80k+ in 3 years. Any adult that requires to care for a family and chooses to work for $8/hr is harming themselves.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        Unless you already have a family to care for, or can't afford to stop working for 3 years to take classes, or can't afford health insurance, or any of a million other reasons that life may not be as simple as you make it out. If everyone joined the trades, the supply of trade workers would increase and their hourly wages would go down.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Ever tried to find work to feed yourself (not work to make money AND feed yourself, merely to be able to afford food and basic rent)? Ever lived 1 paycheck away from being thrown to the street? People are not "willing", they are desperate to not end up sleeping under a bridge.
- x0AC77B2 8y ago
  Well if I want to open a coffee shop and hire highschool students at $8/hr, as an employer I should be able to do that. But if someone who requires to provide for a family and needs $20/hr is willing to work for $8/hr at my coffee shop, that is their fault, not mine.
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    And how much choice do you think they have?
    - x0AC77B2 8y ago
      They are clearly desperate for work. Bettering yourself via education at a trade school, or University is not difficult. But if you got a degree in Psychology and now work at a coffee shop for $8/hr to support a family, you put yourself in that situation.
      - Sharlin 8y ago
        I... I don't even. This demonstrates such a fundamental disconnect from the reality of people living on subsistence level that it's not even funny.
  - CapacitorSet 8y ago
    How is the fault for low wages on the worker, and not the employer? Why is the employer granted the freedom to push unlivable wages, rather than the worker being granted the right to be paid livable wages?
    - closeparen 8y ago
      Starting from the proposition that the worker has a right to a decent living, a minimum wage statue is a terrible way to get there: the employer always has the freedom to "push" no work at all and deploy his capital elsewhere, leaving everyone strictly worse off. As the gig economy companies did just a few years ago, when they didn't exist. It's much cleaner to tax the employer class's excess income, however it's earned, and redistribute it to "gross up" the worker class to whatever the minimum wage would be. Then employers don't have the option of shifting their investment to automation, self-service, less labor-intensive industries, etc. to avoid the concession.
coldtea 8y ago
>The problem seems to be that people are willing to work for low wages. What's the alternative? Starving?
- x0AC77B2 8y ago
  The alternative is developing your education, whether in a trade school or University, and working towards a career that is sustainable in the area you choose to live.
  - rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
    Nice idea in theory but in practice you have people who take out loans just to go to community college, then their car breaks down or a relative has a medical issue, so they drop out to get a job to pay for the new expenses, then the student loans kick in, then they’re stuck in low wage life with even less of a chance of advancement through education. A lot of people can’t work or educate themselves out of the circumstances that put them in poverty, and it’s no fault of their own.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >The alternative is developing your education, whether in a trade school or University, and working towards a career that is sustainable in the area you choose to live. That needs several things to fall into place, including lots of perspective from a young age. Ever tried being born in a single parent family, where the parent is also not the greatest role model (or doesn't have the time, working to feed you) to be? Heck, who said you can even afford taking time off and going to university or even trade school? Or that you've had enough quality education early on to get through it? And what if you're really not that smart to begin with (which is perfectly normal too)?
celrod 8y ago
I think the idea that everyone has to go to college is a factor in this. Many of my friends from undergrad ended up graduating with a mountain of debt, but unable to find jobs requiring a college degree. This forces them to compete for low income jobs (that traditionally don't require a degree), while in the weak bargaining position of being desperate for money just to stay afloat and short on experience.
- undersuit 8y ago
  I think the idea that everyone has to have a place to live is a factor in this. Many of my friends from who used to live with their parents ended up moving into a low-end apartment that cost market rates, but unable to find housing that they could actually afford. This forces them to compete for available rentals units (that traditionally don't require an outsized down-payments), while in the weak bargaining position of being desperate for any thing considered a luxury just to stay alive and short on money. OK, sorry for the crappy rewrite. I'm just upset about the idea that we might look at reducing the levels of education in the United States because our employers don't need them.

CapacitorSet 8y ago

How is the problem that workers accept lower wages, rather than employers proposing them?

hayksaakian 8y ago
Because if workers did not accept those wages their companies would not function That's what strikes and things like that are for
- kylestlb 8y ago
  Can't really go on strike without organized labor, which requires a union or something similar. I don't think many unions for uber, amazon eats, doordash contractors exist. It's very interesting how some of the most highly paid contract-based workers in the USA have the strongest unions - actors and professional athletes.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  If workers didn’t accept those wages they would be destitute. Companies (capital) hold all of the power in our current economic system, it hasn’t always been like this in the US and isn’t in many other countries.
  - x0AC77B2 8y ago
    If I could only find work at $8/hr that is my fault. I could get a student loan and go to a trade school or study CS and make $80k+ in 3 years. Any adult that requires to care for a family and chooses to work for $8/hr is harming themselves.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      Unless you already have a family to care for, or can't afford to stop working for 3 years to take classes, or can't afford health insurance, or any of a million other reasons that life may not be as simple as you make it out. If everyone joined the trades, the supply of trade workers would increase and their hourly wages would go down.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Ever tried to find work to feed yourself (not work to make money AND feed yourself, merely to be able to afford food and basic rent)? Ever lived 1 paycheck away from being thrown to the street? People are not "willing", they are desperate to not end up sleeping under a bridge.
x0AC77B2 8y ago
Well if I want to open a coffee shop and hire highschool students at $8/hr, as an employer I should be able to do that. But if someone who requires to provide for a family and needs $20/hr is willing to work for $8/hr at my coffee shop, that is their fault, not mine.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  And how much choice do you think they have?
  - x0AC77B2 8y ago
    They are clearly desperate for work. Bettering yourself via education at a trade school, or University is not difficult. But if you got a degree in Psychology and now work at a coffee shop for $8/hr to support a family, you put yourself in that situation.
    - Sharlin 8y ago
      I... I don't even. This demonstrates such a fundamental disconnect from the reality of people living on subsistence level that it's not even funny.
- CapacitorSet 8y ago
  How is the fault for low wages on the worker, and not the employer? Why is the employer granted the freedom to push unlivable wages, rather than the worker being granted the right to be paid livable wages?
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Starting from the proposition that the worker has a right to a decent living, a minimum wage statue is a terrible way to get there: the employer always has the freedom to "push" no work at all and deploy his capital elsewhere, leaving everyone strictly worse off. As the gig economy companies did just a few years ago, when they didn't exist. It's much cleaner to tax the employer class's excess income, however it's earned, and redistribute it to "gross up" the worker class to whatever the minimum wage would be. Then employers don't have the option of shifting their investment to automation, self-service, less labor-intensive industries, etc. to avoid the concession.

coldtea 8y ago

>The problem seems to be that people are willing to work for low wages. What's the alternative? Starving?

x0AC77B2 8y ago
The alternative is developing your education, whether in a trade school or University, and working towards a career that is sustainable in the area you choose to live.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  Nice idea in theory but in practice you have people who take out loans just to go to community college, then their car breaks down or a relative has a medical issue, so they drop out to get a job to pay for the new expenses, then the student loans kick in, then they’re stuck in low wage life with even less of a chance of advancement through education. A lot of people can’t work or educate themselves out of the circumstances that put them in poverty, and it’s no fault of their own.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >The alternative is developing your education, whether in a trade school or University, and working towards a career that is sustainable in the area you choose to live. That needs several things to fall into place, including lots of perspective from a young age. Ever tried being born in a single parent family, where the parent is also not the greatest role model (or doesn't have the time, working to feed you) to be? Heck, who said you can even afford taking time off and going to university or even trade school? Or that you've had enough quality education early on to get through it? And what if you're really not that smart to begin with (which is perfectly normal too)?

celrod 8y ago

I think the idea that everyone has to go to college is a factor in this. Many of my friends from undergrad ended up graduating with a mountain of debt, but unable to find jobs requiring a college degree. This forces them to compete for low income jobs (that traditionally don't require a degree), while in the weak bargaining position of being desperate for money just to stay afloat and short on experience.

undersuit 8y ago
I think the idea that everyone has to have a place to live is a factor in this. Many of my friends from who used to live with their parents ended up moving into a low-end apartment that cost market rates, but unable to find housing that they could actually afford. This forces them to compete for available rentals units (that traditionally don't require an outsized down-payments), while in the weak bargaining position of being desperate for any thing considered a luxury just to stay alive and short on money. OK, sorry for the crappy rewrite. I'm just upset about the idea that we might look at reducing the levels of education in the United States because our employers don't need them.