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In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). Plus buying stuff online is more tricky. I cou

by comboy 8y ago

In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). Plus buying stuff online is more tricky. I could envision alternative reality though, where there are companies specializing in providing tokens that have 100% coverage in gold. You would need to trust them and their software, but some trust is always involved. The problem is those would be an easy target with physical holdings (so the problem of the gov comes back, but they could choose under which gov to operate). In that scenario, if the problem gets big enough the gov will take care of it, no matter where on the planet is that gold. In the case of Bitcoin though, while temporarily it can be hampered very easily, it's quite impossible to make it completely go away. The biggest point for gold IMO which you didn't mention, since all value comes from people and their beliefs, is thousands of years vs 10 years.

GW150914 8y ago
If the government wants your gold or private key, they’re going to get it. How long are you going to hold out against their proverbial $5 rubber hose? Solitary confinement? Mundane legal threats?
- comboy 8y ago
  How does it know you have one? You can use brain wallet[1], you can use trezor with multiple passphrases. You can give up some of your bitcoins and if you manage your wallets properly then no one can prove you have some more. 1. Don't use brain wallets, unless you really understand security
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Because at some point you have to pay taxes, or break the law. They nailed Al Capone, and you’re not Al Capone. I suppose you could buy it in secret and never liquidate it, spend it, or declare it... and therefore never benefit from it. I guess that’s a “win” in some books? Otherwise the answer to your question is pretty obvious, and ends with you in prison.
    - comboy 8y ago
      I don't see how taxes are in any way relevant to this discussion. Definitely do pay your taxes. I was answering to a specific question, the bad guy here can just as well be somebody who is trying to rob you. But if it helps you, think about some other government, not necessarily the US one. Do you think they all do the right thing? Should you or should you not be able to help your starving family in Venezuela? They really can't all be doing "the right thing" because they have wars between each other. And those are legal in their books. But you probably want to play along however imperfect rules your government sets, that is until you want to escape the country and you don't want it to be your government anymore. Because e.g. you don't feel like killing every Jew you know and that just became the law.
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        The US Government has the ability to extract money from you legally. It holds the power of taxation. If the US Government, tomorrow, declares a 100% tax on Bitcoin, they can legally posess all of your BTC or... make you a criminal. See Executive Order 6102 for historical precedent. FDR declared Gold to be illegal and took it from most Americans. At which point, you either gave up your gold, or became a gold smuggler. The US functioned as such until Nixon removed the executive order.
  - wruza 8y ago
    It doesn’t work that way. You spend a week in a cold dirty room with insects, hungry, isolated, misinformed with worst fears and perspectives. Occasionally you speak with an interrogator who can bet on the time of your mental breakdown by simply looking at you for a minute. This is a well-known procedure that doesn’t even require a knowledge of what should be revealed. Trained people can stand it if stakes are high (military high, not your extra BTC), but don’t overestimate yourself. You will break down not even being touched by a finger.
    - comboy 8y ago
      Gee, that got pretty dark. We are just comparing options here. Physical things are easier to get from you. It's hard to argue otherwise since information can be represented as a physical thing, but it gives you more options. You can split your private key between 5 friends you trust and make 3 of 5 required (+ password why not) and in general get pretty creative. If you are spending a week in a cold dirty room etc., and especially if some gov got you there, I don't think it matters much how guilty you are or what wealth do you have. They own you.
- basementcat 8y ago
  I’m not concerned about rubber hoses on me as much as I’m concerned about threats to my friends and family. I wouldn’t hold out very long at all.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dullpastry 8y ago
  https://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/29/vendor-xanaxking-anti-bail-letter/ https://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/29/vendor-xanaxking-anti-... > To date, agents have seized over $200,000 in cash and $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant’s operation. > …It is critical to note, however, that this figure represents a small fraction of the proceeds that were flowing to Defendant. The cash seized came only from funds that Defendant had on hand on May 28, 2014, and from an earlier limited seizure of packages. As discussed above, Defendant’s operation was high-volume and lucrative, and agents do not know where Defendant has hidden the rest of the money. > While agents made a limited seizure of only $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant, it is possible that he has access to significantly greater quantities of this currency. https://www.deepdotweb.com/2018/01/11/darknet-vendor-dutchkings-sentenced-seven-years/ https://www.deepdotweb.com/2018/01/11/darknet-vendor-dutchki... > The ex-boyfriend may have earned even more money, but he told the court that he had forgotten the passwords needed to access one of his laptops. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/manchester-students-jailed-selling-800k-drugs-dark-web https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/manchester-s... > The value of their sales was at least £812,000, the court heard, but their profits are likely to have grown exponentially due to the rise in the value of bitcoin over the period. Prosecutors have so far been unable to trace Assaf’s bitcoin. There are hundreds of other cases in which they didn't seize 100% of the suspect's BTC. The cases in which they do seize 100% get more media attention, but they are actually in the minority.
bobthepanda 8y ago
I mean, if the government is trying to take gold away, they're probably not that far from trying to take BTC away. And governments are more than willing to do things like cut off external internet access, power, and all the other necessary infrastructure for BTC. Gold has less infrastructure requirement than BTC; and if your government is willing to beat you bloody for your gold, they're probably also willing to beat you bloody for your BTC wallet credentials.
bunderbunder 8y ago
> In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). If you're to the point where some authority is forcefully taking your assets away, I'd much rather have physical possession of gold than Bitcoin. You can bury gold somewhere and pretend you don't have it. Bitcoin, on the other hand, takes place on a public ledger, so they can, in theory, always track it down. And a thug who's willing to take your gold at gunpoint will be equally happy to take your wallet keys at gunpoint. In terms of @#*%ing up the economy, governments are just as able to trash the Bitcoin economy as they were to trash the gold economy 100 years ago. Using exactly the same methods, too.
- alienplutonic 8y ago
  It's much more practical to obfuscate ownership of BTC (buy it pseudononymously with paper cash, send it through a mixer or XMR) than it is to bury gold. The buried gold is hard to access, not portable, and you would have to be damn sure some hobo didn't see you bury it.

by comboy 8y ago

GW150914 8y ago

If the government wants your gold or private key, they’re going to get it. How long are you going to hold out against their proverbial $5 rubber hose? Solitary confinement? Mundane legal threats?

comboy 8y ago
How does it know you have one? You can use brain wallet[1], you can use trezor with multiple passphrases. You can give up some of your bitcoins and if you manage your wallets properly then no one can prove you have some more. 1. Don't use brain wallets, unless you really understand security
- GW150914 8y ago
  Because at some point you have to pay taxes, or break the law. They nailed Al Capone, and you’re not Al Capone. I suppose you could buy it in secret and never liquidate it, spend it, or declare it... and therefore never benefit from it. I guess that’s a “win” in some books? Otherwise the answer to your question is pretty obvious, and ends with you in prison.
  - comboy 8y ago
    I don't see how taxes are in any way relevant to this discussion. Definitely do pay your taxes. I was answering to a specific question, the bad guy here can just as well be somebody who is trying to rob you. But if it helps you, think about some other government, not necessarily the US one. Do you think they all do the right thing? Should you or should you not be able to help your starving family in Venezuela? They really can't all be doing "the right thing" because they have wars between each other. And those are legal in their books. But you probably want to play along however imperfect rules your government sets, that is until you want to escape the country and you don't want it to be your government anymore. Because e.g. you don't feel like killing every Jew you know and that just became the law.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      The US Government has the ability to extract money from you legally. It holds the power of taxation. If the US Government, tomorrow, declares a 100% tax on Bitcoin, they can legally posess all of your BTC or... make you a criminal. See Executive Order 6102 for historical precedent. FDR declared Gold to be illegal and took it from most Americans. At which point, you either gave up your gold, or became a gold smuggler. The US functioned as such until Nixon removed the executive order.
- wruza 8y ago
  It doesn’t work that way. You spend a week in a cold dirty room with insects, hungry, isolated, misinformed with worst fears and perspectives. Occasionally you speak with an interrogator who can bet on the time of your mental breakdown by simply looking at you for a minute. This is a well-known procedure that doesn’t even require a knowledge of what should be revealed. Trained people can stand it if stakes are high (military high, not your extra BTC), but don’t overestimate yourself. You will break down not even being touched by a finger.
  - comboy 8y ago
    Gee, that got pretty dark. We are just comparing options here. Physical things are easier to get from you. It's hard to argue otherwise since information can be represented as a physical thing, but it gives you more options. You can split your private key between 5 friends you trust and make 3 of 5 required (+ password why not) and in general get pretty creative. If you are spending a week in a cold dirty room etc., and especially if some gov got you there, I don't think it matters much how guilty you are or what wealth do you have. They own you.
basementcat 8y ago
I’m not concerned about rubber hoses on me as much as I’m concerned about threats to my friends and family. I wouldn’t hold out very long at all.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dullpastry 8y ago
https://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/29/vendor-xanaxking-anti-bail-letter/ https://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/29/vendor-xanaxking-anti-... > To date, agents have seized over $200,000 in cash and $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant’s operation. > …It is critical to note, however, that this figure represents a small fraction of the proceeds that were flowing to Defendant. The cash seized came only from funds that Defendant had on hand on May 28, 2014, and from an earlier limited seizure of packages. As discussed above, Defendant’s operation was high-volume and lucrative, and agents do not know where Defendant has hidden the rest of the money. > While agents made a limited seizure of only $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant, it is possible that he has access to significantly greater quantities of this currency. https://www.deepdotweb.com/2018/01/11/darknet-vendor-dutchkings-sentenced-seven-years/ https://www.deepdotweb.com/2018/01/11/darknet-vendor-dutchki... > The ex-boyfriend may have earned even more money, but he told the court that he had forgotten the passwords needed to access one of his laptops. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/manchester-students-jailed-selling-800k-drugs-dark-web https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/manchester-s... > The value of their sales was at least £812,000, the court heard, but their profits are likely to have grown exponentially due to the rise in the value of bitcoin over the period. Prosecutors have so far been unable to trace Assaf’s bitcoin. There are hundreds of other cases in which they didn't seize 100% of the suspect's BTC. The cases in which they do seize 100% get more media attention, but they are actually in the minority.

bobthepanda 8y ago

I mean, if the government is trying to take gold away, they're probably not that far from trying to take BTC away. And governments are more than willing to do things like cut off external internet access, power, and all the other necessary infrastructure for BTC. Gold has less infrastructure requirement than BTC; and if your government is willing to beat you bloody for your gold, they're probably also willing to beat you bloody for your BTC wallet credentials.

bunderbunder 8y ago

> In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). If you're to the point where some authority is forcefully taking your assets away, I'd much rather have physical possession of gold than Bitcoin. You can bury gold somewhere and pretend you don't have it. Bitcoin, on the other hand, takes place on a public ledger, so they can, in theory, always track it down. And a thug who's willing to take your gold at gunpoint will be equally happy to take your wallet keys at gunpoint. In terms of @#*%ing up the economy, governments are just as able to trash the Bitcoin economy as they were to trash the gold economy 100 years ago. Using exactly the same methods, too.

alienplutonic 8y ago
It's much more practical to obfuscate ownership of BTC (buy it pseudononymously with paper cash, send it through a mixer or XMR) than it is to bury gold. The buried gold is hard to access, not portable, and you would have to be damn sure some hobo didn't see you bury it.