4 ms·

I love Elm. Discovered it last year and loved the language so much that I went on a conference later in the year on my own budget. I love how low the cognitive

I love Elm. Discovered it last year and loved the language so much that I went on a conference later in the year on my own budget. I love how low the cognitive load of adding features is. Having a small baby, it helps a lot. That being said, some things really confuse me, and especially the way the governance model is accepted and cherished. We have a `almighty god` deciding what will and not be done, the accepted reason being that it's not 1.0 yet. I mean, with 0.19 coming out, all IDE support went out the window and the answer from the author of the language is basically : 'changes are known since last May, things should have been done already. I don't even know what the status is'. Communication is at the minimum lacking tact. Others could say straight offensive for not-core users. I understand PR is hard and not fun. But then find someone to do it for you, or act as to minimize it. At the moment, the advantages of elm far outweight the issues for my personal use. But I really wonder about the long run, but I'm really afraid someone gets really pissed and forks the language in the long run, fragmenting and ending up destroying this great community. That would really be a waste.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Are you paying to use Elm? What's stopping you from sticking to 0.18? What's stopping you from building your own 0.19 IDE support?
- jlengrand 8y ago
  This is 100% what i mean. This exact way of thinking is what imho might well prevent Elm to strive as much as it could. And btw, I am (modestly) involved in the IDE support. So do check before being cynical <3.
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    My exact way of thinking is that you are not entitled to anything, and neither am I. I run businesses on Elm. I use it because it's the alternative that makes the most business sense (most confidence that I can release things without them breaking, and least chance of failure at runtime). I make money with this tool, and I don't pay to use this tool. If a better tool came along, I'd use the better tool. So far, Elm is the best alternative in my opinion. Everyone has this freedom to pick and choose their tools. And what does it mean to strive? Scala was a striving language. And? It's garbage. It tried to be all things to all people, and ended up being an awful tool. I find it absolutely amazing that so many petulant children in this thread believe they are facing some kind of authoritarian oppression because the language designer said "You know what? Synchronous FFI has almost only been a bad thing. All FFI should be synchronous from now on."
    - jlengrand 8y ago
      First, I'm not sure what makes you think you can just insult me. I'd recommend you tone it down. Second, most of what I see here is very similar to my experience: * I love Elm * I take its pros and cons * The day i don't find what I want there I ll just move out of it. * I do my best to participate in the community as well * Bonus: I also got into Scala and stepped out The only thing I was trying to convey is : * The creator of the language is very opiniated (that is fine) * The way of communicating is not ideal (that is shame, it doesn't have to BE this way). * I hope someone will not really get annoyed by it to a point where the community will get separated / torn. Because it would most likely lead to a lot of negativity. Not sure what brings you to call me a pedulant child. I don't remember saying I was oppressed. . .
      - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
        I'm sorry that my general frustration with most of the comments in this thread materialised as being directed toward you specifically. That wasn't my intention. People (not necessarily you or I) are going to be annoyed though. And this is fine. A tool doesn't need to be the most popular alternative to "thrive" or to "win" (quoting some other commenter now). The thought process for most people in this thread seems to be: 1. Get mad when their "freedoms" (dangerous synchronous FFI) are taken away. 2. Complain, because the programmer knows best (ego/hubris). 3. Complain further about "the community" when their egos aren't pandered to. If the maintainers relinquished their ideals, we'd have a language as dangerous as most of the alternatives. Frankly, I'm not interested in a "community" where everyone gets along but the software is always broken. I need my stuff to work. To you, specifically, I appreciate that you tried to keep the discussion amicable. Thank you for that, and again I'm sorry.
        jlengrand 8y ago
        No big worries. Insults fly a lot on HN, this won't be the last time. Agreed. It's not about pleasing people. Being opiniated is what brought Elm where it is. And it is not about winning. Definitely agree there too. I just wish design considerations were communicated in a more positive, rather than autoritative manner. Because it makes people lose motivation and brings negativity.
- bobbby 8y ago
  For a language aimed at beginners its advocates really make it difficult to recommend getting involved with it Your response typifies the unpleasant atmosphere I've witnessed around Elm which is a shame as it's author and intentions seem so good.
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    What you are doing is called Tone Policing.
    - joel_ms 8y ago
      No‚ it's not. They're not attacking the validity of your statement by criticizing your tone, they are criticizing the effectiveness of your communication. And tone is completely relevant in that context.
- vmchale 8y ago
  > Are you paying to use Elm? Who cares? Evan basically lied when he said Elm was production-ready and encouraged people to use it in production. Don't forget that library authors are community contributors too. When you add maintenance burdens for entirely arbitrary reasons you're not exactly doing them any favors.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago

Are you paying to use Elm? What's stopping you from sticking to 0.18? What's stopping you from building your own 0.19 IDE support?

jlengrand 8y ago
This is 100% what i mean. This exact way of thinking is what imho might well prevent Elm to strive as much as it could. And btw, I am (modestly) involved in the IDE support. So do check before being cynical <3.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  My exact way of thinking is that you are not entitled to anything, and neither am I. I run businesses on Elm. I use it because it's the alternative that makes the most business sense (most confidence that I can release things without them breaking, and least chance of failure at runtime). I make money with this tool, and I don't pay to use this tool. If a better tool came along, I'd use the better tool. So far, Elm is the best alternative in my opinion. Everyone has this freedom to pick and choose their tools. And what does it mean to strive? Scala was a striving language. And? It's garbage. It tried to be all things to all people, and ended up being an awful tool. I find it absolutely amazing that so many petulant children in this thread believe they are facing some kind of authoritarian oppression because the language designer said "You know what? Synchronous FFI has almost only been a bad thing. All FFI should be synchronous from now on."
  - jlengrand 8y ago
    First, I'm not sure what makes you think you can just insult me. I'd recommend you tone it down. Second, most of what I see here is very similar to my experience: * I love Elm * I take its pros and cons * The day i don't find what I want there I ll just move out of it. * I do my best to participate in the community as well * Bonus: I also got into Scala and stepped out The only thing I was trying to convey is : * The creator of the language is very opiniated (that is fine) * The way of communicating is not ideal (that is shame, it doesn't have to BE this way). * I hope someone will not really get annoyed by it to a point where the community will get separated / torn. Because it would most likely lead to a lot of negativity. Not sure what brings you to call me a pedulant child. I don't remember saying I was oppressed. . .
    - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
      I'm sorry that my general frustration with most of the comments in this thread materialised as being directed toward you specifically. That wasn't my intention. People (not necessarily you or I) are going to be annoyed though. And this is fine. A tool doesn't need to be the most popular alternative to "thrive" or to "win" (quoting some other commenter now). The thought process for most people in this thread seems to be: 1. Get mad when their "freedoms" (dangerous synchronous FFI) are taken away. 2. Complain, because the programmer knows best (ego/hubris). 3. Complain further about "the community" when their egos aren't pandered to. If the maintainers relinquished their ideals, we'd have a language as dangerous as most of the alternatives. Frankly, I'm not interested in a "community" where everyone gets along but the software is always broken. I need my stuff to work. To you, specifically, I appreciate that you tried to keep the discussion amicable. Thank you for that, and again I'm sorry.
      - jlengrand 8y ago
        No big worries. Insults fly a lot on HN, this won't be the last time. Agreed. It's not about pleasing people. Being opiniated is what brought Elm where it is. And it is not about winning. Definitely agree there too. I just wish design considerations were communicated in a more positive, rather than autoritative manner. Because it makes people lose motivation and brings negativity.
bobbby 8y ago
For a language aimed at beginners its advocates really make it difficult to recommend getting involved with it Your response typifies the unpleasant atmosphere I've witnessed around Elm which is a shame as it's author and intentions seem so good.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  What you are doing is called Tone Policing.
  - joel_ms 8y ago
    No‚ it's not. They're not attacking the validity of your statement by criticizing your tone, they are criticizing the effectiveness of your communication. And tone is completely relevant in that context.
vmchale 8y ago
> Are you paying to use Elm? Who cares? Evan basically lied when he said Elm was production-ready and encouraged people to use it in production. Don't forget that library authors are community contributors too. When you add maintenance burdens for entirely arbitrary reasons you're not exactly doing them any favors.