5 ms·

McCain might have beaten Hillary, but when Obama locked up the drawn out Democratic nomination, the race was over for the reasons you described.

by gbacon 8y ago

secfirstmd 8y ago
Also making the ridiculous decision (which says a lot about his judgement) to run with Sarah Palin as his VP.
- darkerside 8y ago
  Interestingly, when you look at the last election, maybe he was just ahead of his time
- aaron695 8y ago
  > Also making the ridiculous decision Movies are movies, but check out Game Change. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt01848902/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt01848902/ (Also laugh how when it was made Palin was a crazy idea, but now it's not as cut and dry)
- EpicEng 8y ago
  This is complete conjecture, so grain of salt and all that, but I'm not so sure it says what you think it does about his judgement. He had run before. Honest campaigns, little to no mud slinging, not what you typically see from politicians. He lost. He gave in to the RNC advisors and others around him that time around. Palin obviously turned out to be awful (maybe not strong enough a word) and he didn't care for her very much either, but I imagine he just wanted to get into office so that he could institute what he felt were good policies. I think he was fundamentally a good person and would have been a good leader, though of course we can debate the merits of his policies. Everything being equal, I'll vote for the person I believe has the interests of the populace at heart.
  - gbacon 8y ago
    I remember reading that McCain picked Palin over his handlers’ strong objections. Was it the other way around?
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      As far as I'm aware, he wanted Lieberman and caved to more conservative members of his party. Wikipedia seems to agree[1]. It does also say that he selected Palin because she appeared to be someone who would bolster his "maverick" image. He later regretted the choice. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_presidential_candidacy_of_Sarah_Palin#Selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_presidential_candidacy_of...
      - austincheney 8y ago
        A McCain/Lieberman ticket would have been a dream.
        Spooky23 8y ago
        For Obama. A Jewish candidate would have been like Al Smith in 1932. Good luck turning out the base.
        jjeaff 8y ago
        Not to mention two old white guys going up against the first black nominee. The fact that Palin was a women likely bolstered the arguments to choose her a great deal.
        dogma1138 8y ago
        Obama won in a post 9/11 America while being black and having Hussein as his middle name I don’t think a Jewish VP would’ve been harder to sell even to the Republican base.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      There’s a few stories out there. The common thread is that the vetting process wasn’t done and nobody realized what a shitshow Palin was. Whomever made the decision, it was a rash move that proved that a low caliber, not so smart, but media savvy national candidate could win the support needed to be president. It led to 2016.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    McCain presidential run is a perfect display of one of the weaknesses of the primary system. To win as Republican in the primary you have to appeal to the worse stereotypes of the Republican Party - racist, nationalist, “Christian right” etc. Neither McCain nor Romney ever governed to the far right but they had to pretend like they were to appeal to primary voters. I’m in no way giving Democrats a pass, they have to appeal to the “tax the rich”, we can give everything to everyone and they stay in the mushy middle not really standing for anything.
    - da_chicken 8y ago
      I'm not really sure that's a weakness. Sure, you can point to the things that are used which are harmful or hateful, but this is how a party decides it's policy. The idea is that the platform you pick informs the government you create, yes? Sure, you can argue about whether it's "listening" or "pandering," but the whole foundation of representative government is that the officials elected represent the policies the population wants. Then when they're in office, they're forced to compromise with members of other parties representing other peoples. The fact that immutable obstructionism is the political tactic of the day doesn't mean that the core idea is bad. "People are idiots" is a known fault with democracies, but it's a known fault with all governments or, indeed, all human endeavors.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Not really, Reagan, and the Bushes may have paid lip service to the “moral majority” but they never governed that way. Every modern Republican president supported sensible immigration for instance. I know it seems like I’m giving Democrats a pass, but living in a southern state, I don’t see Democrats veer to far to the left on the state level. They can’t and still have any chance.
- hougy 8y ago
  Nothing ridiculous about it. He could see where the wind was blowing. 50+ million ppl voted for Trump. Who do you think is going to get that vote bank post Trump? Someone even more ridiculous unless a better McCain-Palin type arrangement happens. We are just one Wall Street/Silicon Valley/Pentagon created fiasco away from Alex Jones being president given the current "us VS them" narratives 24*7 news, social media keep amplifying.
  - mejari 8y ago
    >Someone even more ridiculous unless a better McCain-Palin type arrangement happens. We basically got that relationship with Trump/Pence, just flip the ticket and replace War with Religion.
- js2 8y ago
  McCain recounts fighting with his campaign staff over his first pick, the Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, who had been Al Gore's running mate in 2000. Relenting, McCain looks around as the Republican convention in St. Paul, Minn., looms. Desperate for a way to reframe the election, McCain goes with the upstart, populist governor of Alaska. "She was a popular, energetic and accomplished reformer as mayor, governor and as a campaigner," McCain writes. He also thought she would appeal to Democrats who had preferred Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama in that year's primaries. McCain notes her knockout speech at the party convention, but he admits it was downhill thereafter. "She stumbled in some interviews," McCain relates, "and had a few misjudgments in the glare of the ceaseless spotlight. Those missteps too are on me. She didn't put herself on the ticket. I did." https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607403619/exclusive-audio-in-new-memoir-sen-john-mccain-rests-his-case https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607403619/exclusive-audio-in-...
- JauntTrooper 8y ago
  Honestly, I don't think she was a bad choice. I know this sounds ridiculous in hindsight. At the time, she was one of the most popular governors in the US. She was young (44), female and in charge of the largest state in the country by landmass. She was a rising star in the Republican party and on the short list for the next opening for the US Senate. She was also a Westerner like McCain, at a time where the Republican party wanted to make sure it didn't become the party of just the Southern US and voters were sick and tired of the Bush administration and the career Republicans running the place. McCain was losing, and losing momentum. People were scared, companies were going bankrupt, and the stock market crash was imminent. His top choice was Lieberman, but he couldn't choose him. Republicans would hate to see one of the Senate's most senior Democrats (who was pro-choice) as VP. Many Democrats really disliked him too for his support for the Iraq War and opposition to Obama. He lost his primary seat in 2006 and ran as an Independent against the Democrat, basically winning by consolidating the Connecticut Republican vote. The others on the short list were Governor Pawlenty (MN), Governor Jindal (LA), Governor Romney (MA) and Former Governor Ridge (PA). All governors. Pawlenty and Romney were the safe choices, but I don't think they would've been able to turn the tide and shift attention away from the Obama campaign. I was a strong supporter of Obama, and I remember getting worried when McCain chose her. I was really disappointed to hear her first speech - it was patronizing and vindictive, but red meat to the Republican base. I think she basically was told what she needed to do -- i.e. serve as the attack dog and rile up the Republican base and fuel get out the vote efforts in those last two months. And she did a pretty good job at it. She did fine in the VP debate, though Biden did as well, and she looked very comfortable on the national stage. I think the Democrats ran a great campaign, and were able to define her as a political neophyte that was unqualified to serve as President. I also think that McCain personally wanted to run an ethical campaign focusing on the issues, and her full embrace of the red meat partisan issues undermined his campaign. But if he had chosen someone else I don't think there would've been a different outcome. Republican strategists would still have come up with 'death panels' and trying to tie Obama to Bill Ayers and all that other conspiratorial nonsense, it just would've been a different politician saying it.

McCain might have beaten Hillary, but when Obama locked up the drawn out Democratic nomination, the race was over for the reasons you described.

by gbacon 8y ago

McCain might have beaten Hillary, but when Obama locked up the drawn out Democratic nomination, the race was over for the reasons you described.

secfirstmd 8y ago

Also making the ridiculous decision (which says a lot about his judgement) to run with Sarah Palin as his VP.

darkerside 8y ago
Interestingly, when you look at the last election, maybe he was just ahead of his time
aaron695 8y ago
> Also making the ridiculous decision Movies are movies, but check out Game Change. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt01848902/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt01848902/ (Also laugh how when it was made Palin was a crazy idea, but now it's not as cut and dry)
EpicEng 8y ago
This is complete conjecture, so grain of salt and all that, but I'm not so sure it says what you think it does about his judgement. He had run before. Honest campaigns, little to no mud slinging, not what you typically see from politicians. He lost. He gave in to the RNC advisors and others around him that time around. Palin obviously turned out to be awful (maybe not strong enough a word) and he didn't care for her very much either, but I imagine he just wanted to get into office so that he could institute what he felt were good policies. I think he was fundamentally a good person and would have been a good leader, though of course we can debate the merits of his policies. Everything being equal, I'll vote for the person I believe has the interests of the populace at heart.
- gbacon 8y ago
  I remember reading that McCain picked Palin over his handlers’ strong objections. Was it the other way around?
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    As far as I'm aware, he wanted Lieberman and caved to more conservative members of his party. Wikipedia seems to agree[1]. It does also say that he selected Palin because she appeared to be someone who would bolster his "maverick" image. He later regretted the choice. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_presidential_candidacy_of_Sarah_Palin#Selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_presidential_candidacy_of...
    - austincheney 8y ago
      A McCain/Lieberman ticket would have been a dream.
      - Spooky23 8y ago
        For Obama. A Jewish candidate would have been like Al Smith in 1932. Good luck turning out the base.
        jjeaff 8y ago
        Not to mention two old white guys going up against the first black nominee. The fact that Palin was a women likely bolstered the arguments to choose her a great deal.
        dogma1138 8y ago
        Obama won in a post 9/11 America while being black and having Hussein as his middle name I don’t think a Jewish VP would’ve been harder to sell even to the Republican base.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    There’s a few stories out there. The common thread is that the vetting process wasn’t done and nobody realized what a shitshow Palin was. Whomever made the decision, it was a rash move that proved that a low caliber, not so smart, but media savvy national candidate could win the support needed to be president. It led to 2016.
- scarface74 8y ago
  McCain presidential run is a perfect display of one of the weaknesses of the primary system. To win as Republican in the primary you have to appeal to the worse stereotypes of the Republican Party - racist, nationalist, “Christian right” etc. Neither McCain nor Romney ever governed to the far right but they had to pretend like they were to appeal to primary voters. I’m in no way giving Democrats a pass, they have to appeal to the “tax the rich”, we can give everything to everyone and they stay in the mushy middle not really standing for anything.
  - da_chicken 8y ago
    I'm not really sure that's a weakness. Sure, you can point to the things that are used which are harmful or hateful, but this is how a party decides it's policy. The idea is that the platform you pick informs the government you create, yes? Sure, you can argue about whether it's "listening" or "pandering," but the whole foundation of representative government is that the officials elected represent the policies the population wants. Then when they're in office, they're forced to compromise with members of other parties representing other peoples. The fact that immutable obstructionism is the political tactic of the day doesn't mean that the core idea is bad. "People are idiots" is a known fault with democracies, but it's a known fault with all governments or, indeed, all human endeavors.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Not really, Reagan, and the Bushes may have paid lip service to the “moral majority” but they never governed that way. Every modern Republican president supported sensible immigration for instance. I know it seems like I’m giving Democrats a pass, but living in a southern state, I don’t see Democrats veer to far to the left on the state level. They can’t and still have any chance.
hougy 8y ago
Nothing ridiculous about it. He could see where the wind was blowing. 50+ million ppl voted for Trump. Who do you think is going to get that vote bank post Trump? Someone even more ridiculous unless a better McCain-Palin type arrangement happens. We are just one Wall Street/Silicon Valley/Pentagon created fiasco away from Alex Jones being president given the current "us VS them" narratives 24*7 news, social media keep amplifying.
- mejari 8y ago
  >Someone even more ridiculous unless a better McCain-Palin type arrangement happens. We basically got that relationship with Trump/Pence, just flip the ticket and replace War with Religion.
js2 8y ago
McCain recounts fighting with his campaign staff over his first pick, the Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, who had been Al Gore's running mate in 2000. Relenting, McCain looks around as the Republican convention in St. Paul, Minn., looms. Desperate for a way to reframe the election, McCain goes with the upstart, populist governor of Alaska. "She was a popular, energetic and accomplished reformer as mayor, governor and as a campaigner," McCain writes. He also thought she would appeal to Democrats who had preferred Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama in that year's primaries. McCain notes her knockout speech at the party convention, but he admits it was downhill thereafter. "She stumbled in some interviews," McCain relates, "and had a few misjudgments in the glare of the ceaseless spotlight. Those missteps too are on me. She didn't put herself on the ticket. I did." https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607403619/exclusive-audio-in-new-memoir-sen-john-mccain-rests-his-case https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607403619/exclusive-audio-in-...
JauntTrooper 8y ago
Honestly, I don't think she was a bad choice. I know this sounds ridiculous in hindsight. At the time, she was one of the most popular governors in the US. She was young (44), female and in charge of the largest state in the country by landmass. She was a rising star in the Republican party and on the short list for the next opening for the US Senate. She was also a Westerner like McCain, at a time where the Republican party wanted to make sure it didn't become the party of just the Southern US and voters were sick and tired of the Bush administration and the career Republicans running the place. McCain was losing, and losing momentum. People were scared, companies were going bankrupt, and the stock market crash was imminent. His top choice was Lieberman, but he couldn't choose him. Republicans would hate to see one of the Senate's most senior Democrats (who was pro-choice) as VP. Many Democrats really disliked him too for his support for the Iraq War and opposition to Obama. He lost his primary seat in 2006 and ran as an Independent against the Democrat, basically winning by consolidating the Connecticut Republican vote. The others on the short list were Governor Pawlenty (MN), Governor Jindal (LA), Governor Romney (MA) and Former Governor Ridge (PA). All governors. Pawlenty and Romney were the safe choices, but I don't think they would've been able to turn the tide and shift attention away from the Obama campaign. I was a strong supporter of Obama, and I remember getting worried when McCain chose her. I was really disappointed to hear her first speech - it was patronizing and vindictive, but red meat to the Republican base. I think she basically was told what she needed to do -- i.e. serve as the attack dog and rile up the Republican base and fuel get out the vote efforts in those last two months. And she did a pretty good job at it. She did fine in the VP debate, though Biden did as well, and she looked very comfortable on the national stage. I think the Democrats ran a great campaign, and were able to define her as a political neophyte that was unqualified to serve as President. I also think that McCain personally wanted to run an ethical campaign focusing on the issues, and her full embrace of the red meat partisan issues undermined his campaign. But if he had chosen someone else I don't think there would've been a different outcome. Republican strategists would still have come up with 'death panels' and trying to tie Obama to Bill Ayers and all that other conspiratorial nonsense, it just would've been a different politician saying it.