7 ms·

America lost a publicly principled man today. RIP sir. As a related meta-analysis of the response to his passing, i am surprised how many comments here include

America lost a publicly principled man today. RIP sir. As a related meta-analysis of the response to his passing, i am surprised how many comments here include disclaimers to the appreciation offered. "I didn't agree with him but...". Have we become this partisan as a people? Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. A worrying trend.

untog 8y ago
> Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. I mean, he was a politician. And I don't think people are saying that to disclaim their appreciation at all, they're saying it to underline the fact that their appreciation exists despite a deep disagreement with his politics.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gbacon 8y ago
Because admitting political sympathies other than progressive around here draws harsh responses from the HN hivemind.
- eclectic 8y ago
  Bingo!
dnomad 8y ago
Perhaps the strangest aspect of American politics is the total lack of accountability. You really don't see this sort of blind loyalty outside of third world banana regimes. Here you have a guy who is self-admittedly responsible for the destruction of half a million mostly innocent human beings [1], a key architect of the greatest crime of the 21st century that led directly to the scourge of ISIS and the destruction of Syria, and it's like -- "He was an American hero! Don't dare criticize him!" The only actual anger towards McCain comes from Trump extremists. And this is the interesting bit: accountability is supposed to be a key aspect of democracy but you can literally push your country into a totally unnecessary and that's A-OK. You'll only be criticized if you deviate from the party's leader. And while McCain may have eventually admitted Iraq was a mistake it did nothing to lessen his efforts to bomb brown people. He was a key supporter of Saudi Arabia's carpet bombing of Yemen [2] which is now literally blowing up school buses of children. I guess you don't even have to learn from your mistakes. [1] https://www.vox.com/2018/5/25/17394466/john-mccain-memoir-iraq-war-mistake https://www.vox.com/2018/5/25/17394466/john-mccain-memoir-ir... [2] http://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-arms-sale-saudi-arabia-yemen/ http://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-a...
drhodes 8y ago
> Have we become this partisan as a people. It's a human thing. econtalk had an interesting interview this week with someone who wrote a book on this topic. http://www.econtalk.org/lilliana-mason-on-uncivil-agreement/#delve-deeper http://www.econtalk.org/lilliana-mason-on-uncivil-agreement/... Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity.
rayiner 8y ago
As someone who does agree with a lot of positions McCain represented, I can't blame anyone who feels the need to distance themselves from his political party before paying respects. Some of our key political disputes today aren't good-faith disagreements about policy. They're attacks on peoples' families and livelihoods. And when you attack people personally like that, decency is something that goes out the window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-BQi0JjY2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-BQi0JjY2w.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  Political disputes these days are about identity, not ideas, values, or policy. They're not even about politics, really, since politics means compromise, changing minds, and growing support. Everything these days is about discouraging opposition, enraging base coalitions, and running off everyone in the middle. It's about forming tribes and battling. That's no way to build a healthy society. It scares me more than any given issue of the day. I have kids growing up in this world.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Political disputes are about identity because one side keeps insisting on making them about identity. When you attack peoples’ livelihoods based on their identity (e.g. threatening the jobs of transgender people in the military), you can’t complain when people get tribal. When you have police departments that target one group based on skin color, you can’t be surprised when they get tribal. Tribalism is how you protect yourself from threats to yourself and your family. Many people feel like they’re under attack, and when you’re under attack you don’t care about ideas, values, or policy. I’ve seeing it happen before my eyes over the last 20 years. Where I grew up, lots of rich Indians and Middle Eastern people were Republicans. Identity politics wasn’t a thing. No longer. The current political climate is forcing people to pick sides, and people aren’t stupid—they’ll pick sides along tribal lines. You might not agree with your tribe, but you can trust them not to turn on you when things go sideways.
jdietrich 8y ago
It's easy to say nice things about members of your own tribe. It's easy to overlook the faults of someone on your side. "I didn't agree with him but..." just emphasises the sincerity of your admiration. Good opponents are the foundation of a strong democracy. You're in real trouble when you honestly struggle to say anything nice about your opponents, or you're too tied up in tribalism to entertain the possibility that your opponents might be decent and principled people who just happen to have different principles. "I don't agree with you, but I respect you as a person" is the essential basis of civilization.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  Good ideas and rational discussion is the basis if a strong democracy. Opposition is a means to an end. Just like the Socratic method is a way to encourage understanding. So I agree with you that people should be civil, but the premise of respecting the other still hinges on identifing others.
shard972 8y ago
The only principal that I could work out was to bomb everything that moves. Other than that, what else? Making sure to always speak nicely and not use mean words? I would much prefer someone who had the opposite values.
humanrebar 8y ago
> Have we become this partisan as a people? Yes. Will Wheaton apologized for his privilege as an introduction to his public confession of his mental health issues. The post was on the front page here. I typically get disapproval unless I mention I did not vote for Trump when discussing anything political these days. Given a lack of context, people jump to a lot of conclusions these days. So people feel required to volunteer context. It might stop if we learn to give each other the benefit of the doubt. But that requires trust.
danso 8y ago
It’s not partisanship to make such a disclaimer. It’s an acknowledgement that McCain was a huge force in politics, and led initiatives that had serious impact on American policy, for better or worse.

untog 8y ago

> Our semi-anonymous respects for the passing of a prominent figure must be disclaimer-ed with political editorials. I mean, he was a politician. And I don't think people are saying that to disclaim their appreciation at all, they're saying it to underline the fact that their appreciation exists despite a deep disagreement with his politics.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

gbacon 8y ago

Because admitting political sympathies other than progressive around here draws harsh responses from the HN hivemind.

eclectic 8y ago
Bingo!

dnomad 8y ago

Perhaps the strangest aspect of American politics is the total lack of accountability. You really don't see this sort of blind loyalty outside of third world banana regimes. Here you have a guy who is self-admittedly responsible for the destruction of half a million mostly innocent human beings [1], a key architect of the greatest crime of the 21st century that led directly to the scourge of ISIS and the destruction of Syria, and it's like -- "He was an American hero! Don't dare criticize him!" The only actual anger towards McCain comes from Trump extremists. And this is the interesting bit: accountability is supposed to be a key aspect of democracy but you can literally push your country into a totally unnecessary and that's A-OK. You'll only be criticized if you deviate from the party's leader. And while McCain may have eventually admitted Iraq was a mistake it did nothing to lessen his efforts to bomb brown people. He was a key supporter of Saudi Arabia's carpet bombing of Yemen [2] which is now literally blowing up school buses of children. I guess you don't even have to learn from your mistakes. [1] https://www.vox.com/2018/5/25/17394466/john-mccain-memoir-iraq-war-mistake https://www.vox.com/2018/5/25/17394466/john-mccain-memoir-ir... [2] http://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-arms-sale-saudi-arabia-yemen/ http://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-a...

drhodes 8y ago

> Have we become this partisan as a people. It's a human thing. econtalk had an interesting interview this week with someone who wrote a book on this topic. http://www.econtalk.org/lilliana-mason-on-uncivil-agreement/#delve-deeper http://www.econtalk.org/lilliana-mason-on-uncivil-agreement/... Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity.

rayiner 8y ago

As someone who does agree with a lot of positions McCain represented, I can't blame anyone who feels the need to distance themselves from his political party before paying respects. Some of our key political disputes today aren't good-faith disagreements about policy. They're attacks on peoples' families and livelihoods. And when you attack people personally like that, decency is something that goes out the window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-BQi0JjY2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-BQi0JjY2w.

humanrebar 8y ago
Political disputes these days are about identity, not ideas, values, or policy. They're not even about politics, really, since politics means compromise, changing minds, and growing support. Everything these days is about discouraging opposition, enraging base coalitions, and running off everyone in the middle. It's about forming tribes and battling. That's no way to build a healthy society. It scares me more than any given issue of the day. I have kids growing up in this world.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Political disputes are about identity because one side keeps insisting on making them about identity. When you attack peoples’ livelihoods based on their identity (e.g. threatening the jobs of transgender people in the military), you can’t complain when people get tribal. When you have police departments that target one group based on skin color, you can’t be surprised when they get tribal. Tribalism is how you protect yourself from threats to yourself and your family. Many people feel like they’re under attack, and when you’re under attack you don’t care about ideas, values, or policy. I’ve seeing it happen before my eyes over the last 20 years. Where I grew up, lots of rich Indians and Middle Eastern people were Republicans. Identity politics wasn’t a thing. No longer. The current political climate is forcing people to pick sides, and people aren’t stupid—they’ll pick sides along tribal lines. You might not agree with your tribe, but you can trust them not to turn on you when things go sideways.

jdietrich 8y ago

It's easy to say nice things about members of your own tribe. It's easy to overlook the faults of someone on your side. "I didn't agree with him but..." just emphasises the sincerity of your admiration. Good opponents are the foundation of a strong democracy. You're in real trouble when you honestly struggle to say anything nice about your opponents, or you're too tied up in tribalism to entertain the possibility that your opponents might be decent and principled people who just happen to have different principles. "I don't agree with you, but I respect you as a person" is the essential basis of civilization.

humanrebar 8y ago
Good ideas and rational discussion is the basis if a strong democracy. Opposition is a means to an end. Just like the Socratic method is a way to encourage understanding. So I agree with you that people should be civil, but the premise of respecting the other still hinges on identifing others.

shard972 8y ago

The only principal that I could work out was to bomb everything that moves. Other than that, what else? Making sure to always speak nicely and not use mean words? I would much prefer someone who had the opposite values.

humanrebar 8y ago

> Have we become this partisan as a people? Yes. Will Wheaton apologized for his privilege as an introduction to his public confession of his mental health issues. The post was on the front page here. I typically get disapproval unless I mention I did not vote for Trump when discussing anything political these days. Given a lack of context, people jump to a lot of conclusions these days. So people feel required to volunteer context. It might stop if we learn to give each other the benefit of the doubt. But that requires trust.

danso 8y ago

It’s not partisanship to make such a disclaimer. It’s an acknowledgement that McCain was a huge force in politics, and led initiatives that had serious impact on American policy, for better or worse.