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> They would consider it deeply unjust to seek to abolish their schooling alternatives. There's plenty of deep injustice to go around. Other parents might cons

> They would consider it deeply unjust to seek to abolish their schooling alternatives. There's plenty of deep injustice to go around. Other parents might consider it deeply unjust that the only schools they can afford are hellholes where no real teaching occurs and the classrooms aren't even adequately cleaned/heated/ventilated. Does that injustice not matter too?

yellowapple 8y ago
So instead of actually fixing the hellholes, let's abolish the non-hellholes. Yep, totally just.
- notacoward 8y ago
  False dichotomy. I guess some of those private schools don't teach rudiments of logic and debate. The idea is that we would have more resources and motivation to fix the hellholes, which should never have been allowed to become such in the fist place. Also, not every public school is a hellhole. The public high school in my town beats most elite private schools by any measure. Points to you and your friends for consistency of messaging, though. Guess you all read the same websites.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    "I guess some of those private schools don't teach rudiments of logic and debate." I actually went to public school all my life (with the exception of a Montessori school in kindergarten, my memories of which are fuzzy at best). Good try, though :) "The idea is that we would have more resources and motivation to fix the hellholes" That's a nice idea in theory, but in practice there will be more motivation to take that money otherwise spent on private schools and put it toward moving into the boundaries of a non-hellhole public school, leaving the hellhole schools to rot since they're still out of sight/mind. Best-case scenario, the rich families do end up pouring more resources/motivation into improving their own local public schools, possibly making a handful of public schools in wealthy areas non-hellholes (or keeping them from becoming hellholes) while - again - leaving the hellhole schools to rot since they're still out of sight/mind. This already happens quite often, and will only intensify. "which should never have been allowed to become such in the fist place" Agreed. "Also, not every public school is a hellhole. The public high school in my town beats most elite private schools by any measure." I never said all public schools are hellholes, and while my high school wasn't super rich/fancy by any means, it wasn't really a hellhole, either.
    - notacoward 8y ago
      > I never said all public schools are hellholes It's implied by "abolish the non-hellholes". Since the only thing anyone had suggested was abolishing private schools, this equates "non-hellhole" with "private" as though good public schools didn't exist. If that's not what you meant, you should have (and I believe would have) phrased that differently. > Best-case scenario, the rich families do end up pouring more resources/motivation into improving their own local public schools This is a problem only because (a) we live in a highly income-segregated society and (b) the majority of school funding is from local sources. Fix either of those, and the scenario you predict would not occur.
ilove_banh_mi 8y ago
Yes, the low quality and outcomes of public education are very bad, and a political system that insists on dooming a majority of kids to that hellhole is very bad. The positive solution is not to seek to destroy what decent educational systems may still exist. Have you considered that it is public schools that need radical change, to be more like private schools? or even to become private schools?
- notacoward 8y ago
  > the low quality and outcomes of public education are very bad Cherry picking. The quality and outcomes of public education are highly variable. Some schools are just as good as anything private (better if you consider learning citizenship vs. elitism as a criterion). Nobody's suggesting that a "majority" of kids be doomed to hellholes. Most are already fine, the rest might be in former hellholes instead of current ones. > Have you considered that it is public schools that need radical change, to be more like private schools? Yes, I have. In fact, that's what many public schools have already done, and more should do. However, the one way they can not and should not be like private schools is by ceasing to be public. That includes the pseudo-privatization that funnels public money to private interests, shedding regulation and accountability to improve profitability at the expense of the students and staff. Do that, and you'll just have private hellholes (a few of which already exist BTW).
loco5niner 8y ago
> Does that injustice not matter too? Yes, but just because A is broken, does it really make sense to abolish B? Instead, we should fix A.

yellowapple 8y ago

So instead of actually fixing the hellholes, let's abolish the non-hellholes. Yep, totally just.

notacoward 8y ago
False dichotomy. I guess some of those private schools don't teach rudiments of logic and debate. The idea is that we would have more resources and motivation to fix the hellholes, which should never have been allowed to become such in the fist place. Also, not every public school is a hellhole. The public high school in my town beats most elite private schools by any measure. Points to you and your friends for consistency of messaging, though. Guess you all read the same websites.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  "I guess some of those private schools don't teach rudiments of logic and debate." I actually went to public school all my life (with the exception of a Montessori school in kindergarten, my memories of which are fuzzy at best). Good try, though :) "The idea is that we would have more resources and motivation to fix the hellholes" That's a nice idea in theory, but in practice there will be more motivation to take that money otherwise spent on private schools and put it toward moving into the boundaries of a non-hellhole public school, leaving the hellhole schools to rot since they're still out of sight/mind. Best-case scenario, the rich families do end up pouring more resources/motivation into improving their own local public schools, possibly making a handful of public schools in wealthy areas non-hellholes (or keeping them from becoming hellholes) while - again - leaving the hellhole schools to rot since they're still out of sight/mind. This already happens quite often, and will only intensify. "which should never have been allowed to become such in the fist place" Agreed. "Also, not every public school is a hellhole. The public high school in my town beats most elite private schools by any measure." I never said all public schools are hellholes, and while my high school wasn't super rich/fancy by any means, it wasn't really a hellhole, either.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    > I never said all public schools are hellholes It's implied by "abolish the non-hellholes". Since the only thing anyone had suggested was abolishing private schools, this equates "non-hellhole" with "private" as though good public schools didn't exist. If that's not what you meant, you should have (and I believe would have) phrased that differently. > Best-case scenario, the rich families do end up pouring more resources/motivation into improving their own local public schools This is a problem only because (a) we live in a highly income-segregated society and (b) the majority of school funding is from local sources. Fix either of those, and the scenario you predict would not occur.

ilove_banh_mi 8y ago

Yes, the low quality and outcomes of public education are very bad, and a political system that insists on dooming a majority of kids to that hellhole is very bad. The positive solution is not to seek to destroy what decent educational systems may still exist. Have you considered that it is public schools that need radical change, to be more like private schools? or even to become private schools?

notacoward 8y ago
> the low quality and outcomes of public education are very bad Cherry picking. The quality and outcomes of public education are highly variable. Some schools are just as good as anything private (better if you consider learning citizenship vs. elitism as a criterion). Nobody's suggesting that a "majority" of kids be doomed to hellholes. Most are already fine, the rest might be in former hellholes instead of current ones. > Have you considered that it is public schools that need radical change, to be more like private schools? Yes, I have. In fact, that's what many public schools have already done, and more should do. However, the one way they can not and should not be like private schools is by ceasing to be public. That includes the pseudo-privatization that funnels public money to private interests, shedding regulation and accountability to improve profitability at the expense of the students and staff. Do that, and you'll just have private hellholes (a few of which already exist BTW).

loco5niner 8y ago

> Does that injustice not matter too? Yes, but just because A is broken, does it really make sense to abolish B? Instead, we should fix A.