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"do you think that there will be many new ones?" Yes, I think there will continue to be some new projects, and other projects will fall off. Apache isn't the e

by devmonk 16y ago

"do you think that there will be many new ones?" Yes, I think there will continue to be some new projects, and other projects will fall off. Apache isn't the end-all be-all of Java projects, however. Several of the larger newer projects were under SpringSource's wing, and there continue to be new projects there. And there's Codehaus. And some Java projects under GitHub, Java.net, SourceForge, etc. Then there's Groovy, Grails, and related projects. JRuby (formerly at Sun, now at EngineYard) is Ruby, but it allows some reuse of other Java projects. Android (like the author states) is a subset of Java, so all of those Android app projects. Kindle's KDK is Java. Your cable box may even run on Java. If you've been only looking at Apache for Java growth, you've been looking in the wrong place. "Or how many existing projects will have any significant effort put behind them?" The Java projects at Apache have had continued effort put behind them, but some of the people that would have put effort towards Apache projects have spread out into some of the places I mentioned. "If Java at Apache flounders, the platform as a whole will also diminish." That's BS. If Apache fell on its ass, Java would still survive. See all of the other projects I mentioned, plus all of the current Java jobs I mentioned. Where "Java" itself isn't the new hot thing, Java is dominant, and things using/requiring Java are hot, for example- look at this Google trends of Java vs. Android to see what I mean: http://www.google.com/trends?q=java%2C+android http://www.google.com/trends?q=java%2C+android

mbreese 16y ago
For every new JSR, there has been a new Apache project which has been, if not the de-facto reference implementation, one of the major implementations (for better or worse). I just don't see this happening in the future. There will obviously be other organizations that will take up the slack, but I honestly don't see it working as well as with Apache. I know all about the new-hotness that are Groovy, JRuby, Closure, Scala, KDK, Android etc... This isn't a Java-the-language discussion. This is a Java the platform/JVM discussion. Oracle's actions so far have been pretty chilling for the entire platform. You can't run any of the above without the JVM, and that is what Oracle is controlling. Java will survive for a long time, and I don't think that anyone doubts that. But for the first time in a long time there is some doubt about whether or not it is a platform to build future products on. In my mind, Apache is the canary in the coal mine. It might take a while, but they will lose their position of dominance over this. Then again, it's been a ~15 years, isn't the industry ready to promote something else as the new major language? We've already seen Ruby and Python strengthen their positions.
- devmonk 16y ago
  Oracle can't and won't kill the platform. They are certainly doing harm to Java, but Oracle hasn't sued IBM yet over this and there is quite a bit Oracle would go after if it were truly intent on killing the JVM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines I don't think that anyone is questioning anyone looking into using other languages. I even suggested Ruby myself. It might be a dark age for Oracle sponsoring Java Community Process development, but some of the JSRs have been crap. If development of new JSRs slows to a crawl, so be it. A wealth of Java, Ruby, Python, etc. projects have evolved without being attached to a bureaucratic standards committee.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    All proprietary Java implementations are licensed, with the deal made behind closed-doors, especially IBM's. All open-source Java implementations available (minus OpenJDK) are not certified, and can be sued for patents infringements (or trademark violations if they're advertised as being Java implementations). Oracle just showed they are not shy on using their property.
    - devmonk 16y ago
      From what I've understood, Sun didn't license everything to IBM (or for that matter, to others as you stated). Charles Nutter had a great post (and it has been updated) on the Oracle suit against Google where he talks about some of the wild claims that Oracle was making: http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-goog... My point is that no rational company would attack its own base. Oracle had some wild claims. These will be toned down and they will come to an agreement. Things will move on. I'm not saying that people shouldn't pay attention to Oracle's antics (even though I just consider Oracle a whining child at this point), but I think this whole thing is overblown.
- bad_user 16y ago
  Sun always had a schizophrenic behavior in regards to open-source and the Java standard. This is also one of those stories where the GPL (version 2) is acting in the interests of Oracle, not in the interest of the users; if only Sun released OpenJDK under Apache ... but why would they do that?

by devmonk 16y ago

mbreese 16y ago

For every new JSR, there has been a new Apache project which has been, if not the de-facto reference implementation, one of the major implementations (for better or worse). I just don't see this happening in the future. There will obviously be other organizations that will take up the slack, but I honestly don't see it working as well as with Apache. I know all about the new-hotness that are Groovy, JRuby, Closure, Scala, KDK, Android etc... This isn't a Java-the-language discussion. This is a Java the platform/JVM discussion. Oracle's actions so far have been pretty chilling for the entire platform. You can't run any of the above without the JVM, and that is what Oracle is controlling. Java will survive for a long time, and I don't think that anyone doubts that. But for the first time in a long time there is some doubt about whether or not it is a platform to build future products on. In my mind, Apache is the canary in the coal mine. It might take a while, but they will lose their position of dominance over this. Then again, it's been a ~15 years, isn't the industry ready to promote something else as the new major language? We've already seen Ruby and Python strengthen their positions.

devmonk 16y ago
Oracle can't and won't kill the platform. They are certainly doing harm to Java, but Oracle hasn't sued IBM yet over this and there is quite a bit Oracle would go after if it were truly intent on killing the JVM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines I don't think that anyone is questioning anyone looking into using other languages. I even suggested Ruby myself. It might be a dark age for Oracle sponsoring Java Community Process development, but some of the JSRs have been crap. If development of new JSRs slows to a crawl, so be it. A wealth of Java, Ruby, Python, etc. projects have evolved without being attached to a bureaucratic standards committee.
- bad_user 16y ago
  All proprietary Java implementations are licensed, with the deal made behind closed-doors, especially IBM's. All open-source Java implementations available (minus OpenJDK) are not certified, and can be sued for patents infringements (or trademark violations if they're advertised as being Java implementations). Oracle just showed they are not shy on using their property.
  - devmonk 16y ago
    From what I've understood, Sun didn't license everything to IBM (or for that matter, to others as you stated). Charles Nutter had a great post (and it has been updated) on the Oracle suit against Google where he talks about some of the wild claims that Oracle was making: http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-goog... My point is that no rational company would attack its own base. Oracle had some wild claims. These will be toned down and they will come to an agreement. Things will move on. I'm not saying that people shouldn't pay attention to Oracle's antics (even though I just consider Oracle a whining child at this point), but I think this whole thing is overblown.
bad_user 16y ago
Sun always had a schizophrenic behavior in regards to open-source and the Java standard. This is also one of those stories where the GPL (version 2) is acting in the interests of Oracle, not in the interest of the users; if only Sun released OpenJDK under Apache ... but why would they do that?