5 ms·

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptual

There is no difference between 3/4 and 6/8 unless you are trying to decide on which one makes your score easier to read. It's just different ways of conceptualizing the phrase. Mathematically (and therefore rhythmically) they are the same, of course. Maybe the site is trying to make some other differentiation but it didn't work at all in Firefox. (Source: I am a professional drummer)

DavidPiper 8y ago
This is not the case. While some inexperienced composers/arrangers/scorers may transcribe 3/4 pieces in 6/8 to make the score look better, it is a fundamentally incorrect thing to do. 3/4 has one significant beat per bar: ONE two three | ONE two three - Think any waltz you've ever heard. 6/8 has two siginficant beats per bar: ONE two three Four five six | ONE to three Four five six - Think Follow the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz, or We Are the Champions by Queen. The second down beat has less significance than the first. In this way 6/8 is like 2/4, except in triple form, not duple form. Pieces in 6/8 do not (and generally should not) feel the same as pieces written in 3/4. The only thing 3/4 and 6/8 share is the number of note-lengths that fit into a bar, which has no bearing on the feel, sound or rhythm of a piece. Sources: https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15 https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15 , https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36fn1g/i_still_cant_tell_the_difference_between_34_and_68/ https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36fn1g/i_still... , and own experience
- pishpash 8y ago
  6/8 doesn't need 2 (or any static number of) significant beats. As long as there are really 6 rhythmic atoms before the pattern repeats, it deserves a 6/x. The easiest way that happens is lcm(2,3).
  - quadrangle 8y ago
    It's called convention. By convention (not by anything about the notation itself), 6/8 is used for compound time with 2 significant beats.
    - pishpash 8y ago
      You're confusing cause and effect. If you have compound time with 2 significant beats, you should see 6/8. If you see 6/8, it does not imply there are 2 significant beats.
      - DavidPiper 8y ago
        > If you have compound time with 2 significant beats, you should see 6/8. I assume you meant to write 'compound meter', in which case yes, absolutely. > If you see 6/8, it does not imply there are 2 significant beats It should. If it does not, then you'll be notating a lot of accented notes explicitly in the music to convey to the player exactly what beat formation is. If these accents are regular, this is a waste/clutter of notation because it's clear you're actually writing a piece in a time other than 6/8. If the accents are irregular, then they are likely either indicating syncopation, or they are completely irregular in which case you're deliberately writing music with a feel that cannot be accurately described by a single time signature, and you should be changing time signatures through the piece as necessary to describe the beat to the player. (Or it cannot be nicely described by the notation in use). Jacob Collier is an example of a musician who enjoys exploring this kind of music. See for example: https://youtu.be/b78NoobJNEo?t=14m40s https://youtu.be/b78NoobJNEo?t=14m40s onwards. He invented a new terminology for time signatures to accommodate his style of writing.
      - seanyeh 8y ago
        6/8 does imply 2 strong beats (at least in western classical music tradition).
- nerflad 8y ago
  > ONE two three | ONE two three This phrase also has two significant beats. There's just a barline in the middle. See my point?
  - nerflad 8y ago
    In an effort not to be snarky, my point is that rhythm is fractal and these are essentially just two different levels of magnification. You're absolutely right that there are conventions and implications in how they are written, but the thing about conventions (let's use a software term: "best practices") is that people's opinions on what they are tend to be heterogeneous. As a jazz musician, to me the denominator is not important, as it only represents the level of magnification. The important part is that the piece is in (some multiple of) 3. I would argue that We Are The Champions is actually a 12/8 groove (conceptually triplets in 4/4). And we would both be right!
    - quadrangle 8y ago
      I agree with you, probably 100% at the end of the day. But I don't agree with your first post that seemed to tell readers that there was no distinction. The convention is that these two time signatures stand-in for two different actual perceptually different music feelings. The "tactus" (the place we feel the beat) certainly can be subjectively moved to different levels in the hierarchy. Furthermore, you're right that the bottom number is basically just a notation preference (6/8 and 6/16 are effectively identical, though nobody uses the latter). But the whole point of anyone describing the difference between 6/8 and 3/4 is that they are using the convention to describe the actual feel difference between dividing the same amount of time into 2 vs 3, the hemiola issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola I basically was taking issue with seeing a reply to a post that was highlighting this difference that is a real perceptual one (not just a notational one, but described, unfortunately, with focus on notation) with the claim "there is no difference". I apologize for the aspects of my reply that were ad hominem instead of just critiquing the post itself.
      - nerflad 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
quadrangle 8y ago
You may be a professional drummer, but you are of some sort of mindset that has you in denial of the concept of convention. You also certainly feel rhythm but do not intellectually understand it. Rhythm is a cognitive/perceptual/psychological process whereby we relate events to one another. It is not mere timing. When you impose in your mind a structure on a timing by giving extra attention to certain events, then you are experiencing rhythm. taDA and TAda are different rhythms even if the timing is the same and the sounds even are the same but you treat them as having those accent patterns (either at-will or through other things that draw your attention such as a their timing in relation to a meter that has gotten set in your mind or even visual cues as to which should be accented). The 3/4 vs 6/8 distinction is a historic convention, not something in the math. By convention, 6/8 is divided into 2 sets of 3. And yes, these get fuzzy in various real-world concepts like the whole idea of hemiola which is the overlaying of these two meters.
- nerflad 8y ago
  (1) 2 3 | (1) 2 3 and (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 are rhythmically identical. You're only conceptualizing them differently. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to write this myopic and extremely condescending explanation of my area of study. I will be sure to return the favor someday.
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    They have different hierarchies. In typical 3/4, the first beat of each measure is given equal weight. In typical 6/8, the first beat is given a bit more weight than the fourth beat. Same reason why we treat 2/4 and 4/4 differently.
    - nerflad 8y ago
      Who's we? Your decision to give certain beats more or less emphasis is a subjective one. You can glean absolutely no information about a piece from the way the rhythm is subdivided, except maybe the intended tempo.
dylan604 8y ago
In a non-Archer sense of the word, how do percussionists think of phrasing? As a non-percussionist/string player, a phrase was a great place to take a breath for us regular humans that can't circular breath. The basic definition I was always given was 8 bars. That was always worked well for me. As a DJ, the 8 bars would tell me the percussionist is due for a cymbal crash ;-). I always got a chuckle when I'd get a piece of music where the composer would add a breath mark for the woods/brass players. Funny thing that breathing concept.
- nerflad 8y ago
  Well this gets subjective almost immediately, but in a general sense, not closely related to one instrument, I think of phrases as the music within the length of time (la dee da dee dum), as opposed to the length of time itself (1234, 1234). I wouldn't play a cymbal crash at the end of 8 bars if the musical climax didn't happen until the end of bar 9. The barlines aren't as important as the music sitting around them.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  Depending on the context, you might actually want to "stagger-breathe" to avoid breathing right on the phrase boundary. You generally don't want the breaths to be noticeable, especially if it's in the middle of a long sustained note. Instead, you'd take a breath on one measure mid-phrase, another player would take a breath in the next measure or so, etc. to keep the note going. When I marched in a drum and bugle corps, we'd actually all have individually preassigned breath marks. Of course, this only works well if you have multiple players per part. This ain't really practical outside of marching or symphonic/orchestral contexts.
pogimabus 8y ago
As a musician, the reactions to almost every post on hacker news involving music ends up both cracking me up and serving as a healthy reminder of the arrogance and hubris around here. In all my time I've never met another musician/composer who tried to convince me that there is some kind of fundamental rythmic difference between 2/3 and 6/8 time, yet here we have scores of people who are fighting for the idea as if it were part of their identity or something... At least it's a healthy reminder that the eloquence and apparent confidence with which a statement is delivered really isn't indicative of it's truthfulness at all haha...
- gooseyard 8y ago
  thank you from the depths of my musician heart.

DavidPiper 8y ago

This is not the case. While some inexperienced composers/arrangers/scorers may transcribe 3/4 pieces in 6/8 to make the score look better, it is a fundamentally incorrect thing to do. 3/4 has one significant beat per bar: ONE two three | ONE two three - Think any waltz you've ever heard. 6/8 has two siginficant beats per bar: ONE two three Four five six | ONE to three Four five six - Think Follow the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz, or We Are the Champions by Queen. The second down beat has less significance than the first. In this way 6/8 is like 2/4, except in triple form, not duple form. Pieces in 6/8 do not (and generally should not) feel the same as pieces written in 3/4. The only thing 3/4 and 6/8 share is the number of note-lengths that fit into a bar, which has no bearing on the feel, sound or rhythm of a piece. Sources: https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15 https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15 , https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36fn1g/i_still_cant_tell_the_difference_between_34_and_68/ https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36fn1g/i_still... , and own experience

pishpash 8y ago
6/8 doesn't need 2 (or any static number of) significant beats. As long as there are really 6 rhythmic atoms before the pattern repeats, it deserves a 6/x. The easiest way that happens is lcm(2,3).
- quadrangle 8y ago
  It's called convention. By convention (not by anything about the notation itself), 6/8 is used for compound time with 2 significant beats.
  - pishpash 8y ago
    You're confusing cause and effect. If you have compound time with 2 significant beats, you should see 6/8. If you see 6/8, it does not imply there are 2 significant beats.
    - DavidPiper 8y ago
      > If you have compound time with 2 significant beats, you should see 6/8. I assume you meant to write 'compound meter', in which case yes, absolutely. > If you see 6/8, it does not imply there are 2 significant beats It should. If it does not, then you'll be notating a lot of accented notes explicitly in the music to convey to the player exactly what beat formation is. If these accents are regular, this is a waste/clutter of notation because it's clear you're actually writing a piece in a time other than 6/8. If the accents are irregular, then they are likely either indicating syncopation, or they are completely irregular in which case you're deliberately writing music with a feel that cannot be accurately described by a single time signature, and you should be changing time signatures through the piece as necessary to describe the beat to the player. (Or it cannot be nicely described by the notation in use). Jacob Collier is an example of a musician who enjoys exploring this kind of music. See for example: https://youtu.be/b78NoobJNEo?t=14m40s https://youtu.be/b78NoobJNEo?t=14m40s onwards. He invented a new terminology for time signatures to accommodate his style of writing.
    - seanyeh 8y ago
      6/8 does imply 2 strong beats (at least in western classical music tradition).
nerflad 8y ago
> ONE two three | ONE two three This phrase also has two significant beats. There's just a barline in the middle. See my point?
- nerflad 8y ago
  In an effort not to be snarky, my point is that rhythm is fractal and these are essentially just two different levels of magnification. You're absolutely right that there are conventions and implications in how they are written, but the thing about conventions (let's use a software term: "best practices") is that people's opinions on what they are tend to be heterogeneous. As a jazz musician, to me the denominator is not important, as it only represents the level of magnification. The important part is that the piece is in (some multiple of) 3. I would argue that We Are The Champions is actually a 12/8 groove (conceptually triplets in 4/4). And we would both be right!
  - quadrangle 8y ago
    I agree with you, probably 100% at the end of the day. But I don't agree with your first post that seemed to tell readers that there was no distinction. The convention is that these two time signatures stand-in for two different actual perceptually different music feelings. The "tactus" (the place we feel the beat) certainly can be subjectively moved to different levels in the hierarchy. Furthermore, you're right that the bottom number is basically just a notation preference (6/8 and 6/16 are effectively identical, though nobody uses the latter). But the whole point of anyone describing the difference between 6/8 and 3/4 is that they are using the convention to describe the actual feel difference between dividing the same amount of time into 2 vs 3, the hemiola issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola I basically was taking issue with seeing a reply to a post that was highlighting this difference that is a real perceptual one (not just a notational one, but described, unfortunately, with focus on notation) with the claim "there is no difference". I apologize for the aspects of my reply that were ad hominem instead of just critiquing the post itself.
    - nerflad 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

quadrangle 8y ago

You may be a professional drummer, but you are of some sort of mindset that has you in denial of the concept of convention. You also certainly feel rhythm but do not intellectually understand it. Rhythm is a cognitive/perceptual/psychological process whereby we relate events to one another. It is not mere timing. When you impose in your mind a structure on a timing by giving extra attention to certain events, then you are experiencing rhythm. taDA and TAda are different rhythms even if the timing is the same and the sounds even are the same but you treat them as having those accent patterns (either at-will or through other things that draw your attention such as a their timing in relation to a meter that has gotten set in your mind or even visual cues as to which should be accented). The 3/4 vs 6/8 distinction is a historic convention, not something in the math. By convention, 6/8 is divided into 2 sets of 3. And yes, these get fuzzy in various real-world concepts like the whole idea of hemiola which is the overlaying of these two meters.

nerflad 8y ago
(1) 2 3 | (1) 2 3 and (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 are rhythmically identical. You're only conceptualizing them differently. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to write this myopic and extremely condescending explanation of my area of study. I will be sure to return the favor someday.
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  They have different hierarchies. In typical 3/4, the first beat of each measure is given equal weight. In typical 6/8, the first beat is given a bit more weight than the fourth beat. Same reason why we treat 2/4 and 4/4 differently.
  - nerflad 8y ago
    Who's we? Your decision to give certain beats more or less emphasis is a subjective one. You can glean absolutely no information about a piece from the way the rhythm is subdivided, except maybe the intended tempo.

dylan604 8y ago

In a non-Archer sense of the word, how do percussionists think of phrasing? As a non-percussionist/string player, a phrase was a great place to take a breath for us regular humans that can't circular breath. The basic definition I was always given was 8 bars. That was always worked well for me. As a DJ, the 8 bars would tell me the percussionist is due for a cymbal crash ;-). I always got a chuckle when I'd get a piece of music where the composer would add a breath mark for the woods/brass players. Funny thing that breathing concept.

nerflad 8y ago
Well this gets subjective almost immediately, but in a general sense, not closely related to one instrument, I think of phrases as the music within the length of time (la dee da dee dum), as opposed to the length of time itself (1234, 1234). I wouldn't play a cymbal crash at the end of 8 bars if the musical climax didn't happen until the end of bar 9. The barlines aren't as important as the music sitting around them.
yellowapple 8y ago
Depending on the context, you might actually want to "stagger-breathe" to avoid breathing right on the phrase boundary. You generally don't want the breaths to be noticeable, especially if it's in the middle of a long sustained note. Instead, you'd take a breath on one measure mid-phrase, another player would take a breath in the next measure or so, etc. to keep the note going. When I marched in a drum and bugle corps, we'd actually all have individually preassigned breath marks. Of course, this only works well if you have multiple players per part. This ain't really practical outside of marching or symphonic/orchestral contexts.

pogimabus 8y ago

As a musician, the reactions to almost every post on hacker news involving music ends up both cracking me up and serving as a healthy reminder of the arrogance and hubris around here. In all my time I've never met another musician/composer who tried to convince me that there is some kind of fundamental rythmic difference between 2/3 and 6/8 time, yet here we have scores of people who are fighting for the idea as if it were part of their identity or something... At least it's a healthy reminder that the eloquence and apparent confidence with which a statement is delivered really isn't indicative of it's truthfulness at all haha...

gooseyard 8y ago
thank you from the depths of my musician heart.