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Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not, the testimonies for the software experts called in to review Toyota's source code for

Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not, the testimonies for the software experts called in to review Toyota's source code for the case were eye-popping: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende... > Skid marks notwithstanding, two of the plaintiffs’ software experts, Phillip Koopman, and Michael Barr, provided fascinating insights into the myriad problems with Toyota’s software development process and its source code – possible bit flips, task deaths that would disable the failsafes, memory corruption, single-point failures, inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow, single-fault containment regions, thousands of global variables. The list of deficiencies in process and product was lengthy. >There are a large number of functions that are overly complex. By the standard industry metrics some of them are untestable, meaning that it is so complicated a recipe that there is no way to develop a reliable test suite or test methodology to test all the possible things that can happen in it. Some of them are even so complex that they are what is called unmaintainable, which means that if you go in to fix a bug or to make a change, you're likely to create a new bug in the process. Just because your car has the latest version of the firmware -- that is what we call embedded software -- doesn't mean it is safer necessarily than the older one….And that conclusion is that the failsafes are inadequate. The failsafes that they have contain defects or gaps. But on the whole, the safety architecture is a house of cards. It is possible for a large percentage of the failsafes to be disabled at the same time that the throttle control is lost. etc. etc.

Avshalom 8y ago
I mean it's a bit depressing but its only eyepopping if you suffer from murray-gelman amnesia about literally every piece of software even written.
gammatrigono 8y ago
When you're paid to find errors in software, you point out every conceivable bug you can see.
pwinnski 8y ago
People quote this repeatedly here, but I'm not sure what it's intended to demonstrate. Most code is buggy, and the more closely you look, the buggier it is. Most of that same code operates without noticeable error. That code analysis turns up "inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow" does not actually suggest that there was any stack overflow or buffer overflow, and people quote this as if it does. Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead. You started with "Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not," but I think that's the important thing, and that software is buggy should surprise nobody.
- coatmatter 8y ago
  > Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead. At risk of beating a dead horse, I do find it interesting how despite the myriad of "driver hit the wrong pedal" news stories out there, only the Prius one starts from the "it had a mind of its own" angle. I think what most people don't realise is that it's so incredibly easy to be fallible with "automatic" familiar everyday activities (i.e., not maths or remembering facts). I recall in driving school approaching a quiet intersection where I once lost proprioception of my foot and had to call the instructor to use her dual brake because I didn't know where my foot was or could no longer reach the brake pedal (I guess I'd have attempted the hand brake if I were alone). From this single experience along with running other dark hypotheticals through my head, I am so cautious with many things that it bewilders me that activities such as "carpool karaoke" is not an atypical practice. But otherwise yep, same thing with software only that the stakes are often lower thanks to the sheer number of non-mission critical projects out there. It's only the mission critical bugs that get the most attention and surprise.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    > I once lost proprioception of my foot That's fascinating. I can say that is something I have never experienced. Does it happen to you with any regularity?
diiaann 8y ago
Koopman has a talk here on his blog that has more details about how ETCS (Electronic Throttle Control System) is safety critical. "If a driver pumps brakes, loses vacuum power assist...WOT requires an average of 175 lbs of force on brake pedal" And what was particularly negligent about Toyota's software practices that "more likely than not" caused issues with ETCS. https://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toyota-unintended.html https://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toy...

Avshalom 8y ago

I mean it's a bit depressing but its only eyepopping if you suffer from murray-gelman amnesia about literally every piece of software even written.

gammatrigono 8y ago

When you're paid to find errors in software, you point out every conceivable bug you can see.

pwinnski 8y ago

People quote this repeatedly here, but I'm not sure what it's intended to demonstrate. Most code is buggy, and the more closely you look, the buggier it is. Most of that same code operates without noticeable error. That code analysis turns up "inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow" does not actually suggest that there was any stack overflow or buffer overflow, and people quote this as if it does. Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead. You started with "Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not," but I think that's the important thing, and that software is buggy should surprise nobody.

coatmatter 8y ago
> Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead. At risk of beating a dead horse, I do find it interesting how despite the myriad of "driver hit the wrong pedal" news stories out there, only the Prius one starts from the "it had a mind of its own" angle. I think what most people don't realise is that it's so incredibly easy to be fallible with "automatic" familiar everyday activities (i.e., not maths or remembering facts). I recall in driving school approaching a quiet intersection where I once lost proprioception of my foot and had to call the instructor to use her dual brake because I didn't know where my foot was or could no longer reach the brake pedal (I guess I'd have attempted the hand brake if I were alone). From this single experience along with running other dark hypotheticals through my head, I am so cautious with many things that it bewilders me that activities such as "carpool karaoke" is not an atypical practice. But otherwise yep, same thing with software only that the stakes are often lower thanks to the sheer number of non-mission critical projects out there. It's only the mission critical bugs that get the most attention and surprise.
- ams6110 8y ago
  > I once lost proprioception of my foot That's fascinating. I can say that is something I have never experienced. Does it happen to you with any regularity?

diiaann 8y ago

Koopman has a talk here on his blog that has more details about how ETCS (Electronic Throttle Control System) is safety critical. "If a driver pumps brakes, loses vacuum power assist...WOT requires an average of 175 lbs of force on brake pedal" And what was particularly negligent about Toyota's software practices that "more likely than not" caused issues with ETCS. https://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toyota-unintended.html https://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toy...