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UBI doesn't work because it depends on people working to fund it. The amount of money required for poverty level UBI in the US (one of the richest countries) is

UBI doesn't work because it depends on people working to fund it. The amount of money required for poverty level UBI in the US (one of the richest countries) is more than all of the federal current tax revenue, which comes from working people. We can't all decide we are going to live for free and magically still get to drive cars, live in houses, eat food, have running water, etc. The entire point of the economic system is to motivate people to help each other. If the money motivation goes away, people either stop helping each other or you have to motivate with violence.

cortic 8y ago
..in your opinion. But in reality the current system doesn't work and needs constant massive bailouts and public funding R&D to just barely operate for the minority.. The entire point of the current economic system is to motivate the masses to enrich the few. If the motivation goes away then maybe people will work to enrich their own lives.
- windows_tips 8y ago
  >But in reality the current system doesn't work and needs constant massive bailouts and public funding R&D to just barely operate for the minority.. Says an HN comment.. Maybe try to rework this sentence, because it doesn't appear to be true. While things may not be excellent for everyone, clearly the "system" works to some extent. >The entire point of the current economic system is to motivate the masses to enrich the few. Do you have a source on this? What do you consider to be the current system? The Federal Reserve System? >If the motivation goes away then maybe people will work to enrich their own lives. Do you seriously not think that people work to enrich their own lives right now? I can tell you that I'm posting this to enrich mine.
  - cortic 8y ago
    >Maybe try to rework this sentence The current state of our market system requires massive bailouts and massive funding into research and development, massive subsidies (e.g. arms), and an overworked and underpaid workforce to limp along and pay out a healthy dividend to the richest(few) investors. >source on this? Just look at any multi billion dollar company; whats the difference between shareholder payout and worker payout? How else would you define this system where a company can declare hundred million dollar profits while paying minimum wage? >Do you seriously not think that people work to enrich their own lives right now? We try. for the last 8 hours i worked to make money that would enrich my life, but my work made someone else a hundred times this amount so 1% of my last 8 hours was for me.
    - dexterdog 8y ago
      If somebody else is making 100x off of just your work you need to quit yesterday and find somebody to pay you 2x what you are currently making. They will be more than happy to do so as they will still be making a 50x profit on you. Either that or you have absolutely no clue as to how much value you actually create for your company. Nobody generates 100x profit, not even slaves.
      - cortic 8y ago
        thank you for your advice, i think you missed my point though.
        dexterdog 8y ago
        I thought your point was that somebody else is actually making 99-100 dollars for every dollar that you make. I would like to know how you came to that number.
        cortic 8y ago
        i worked out those numbers roughly for myself. My point though, was; most of, or at least the majority of my working life is to enrich someone who is richer that could can ever be. This is the nature of the relationship between the shareholder and the common worker.
jon-wood 8y ago
The funding for UBI would require more funding than the current federal tax revenue. One of the things that would be necessary to make it work is redistribution of wealth. Taking taxes large corporates who are increasingly making more money through automation and the removal of jobs, so that it can be used to fund a better lifestyle for the majority of people. Sadly I don't see a political environment where that's actually viable any time soon, but at some point we're going to have to see a move in that direction because there will be an ever decreasing pool of jobs that require actual people.
- throwaway76543 8y ago
  The cost of UBI depends entirely on the magnitude of the benefit; your position is indefensible given we haven't established the magnitude. Obviously increasing welfare implies increased taxes. I don't see anything controversial there? I do agree the USA currently lacks the political will to move much in this direction.
wallace_f 8y ago
ubi isn't doing away with markets or the profit motive. it's just: here is enough money you don't die. so more people can pursue their passions. OP is probably excessively optimistic that will be science. in reality it will probably not be. but it's a lot better than useless bureaucracies, inefficiencies and the willingness to do whatever so you don't die
tomrod 8y ago
UBI currently exists, it's level is just 0,if you don't count existing community welfare programs.
- pc86 8y ago
  > UBI currently exists I mean if we're willfully misinterpreting what UBI is to prove a worthlessly pedantic point, sure.

cortic 8y ago

..in your opinion. But in reality the current system doesn't work and needs constant massive bailouts and public funding R&D to just barely operate for the minority.. The entire point of the current economic system is to motivate the masses to enrich the few. If the motivation goes away then maybe people will work to enrich their own lives.

windows_tips 8y ago
>But in reality the current system doesn't work and needs constant massive bailouts and public funding R&D to just barely operate for the minority.. Says an HN comment.. Maybe try to rework this sentence, because it doesn't appear to be true. While things may not be excellent for everyone, clearly the "system" works to some extent. >The entire point of the current economic system is to motivate the masses to enrich the few. Do you have a source on this? What do you consider to be the current system? The Federal Reserve System? >If the motivation goes away then maybe people will work to enrich their own lives. Do you seriously not think that people work to enrich their own lives right now? I can tell you that I'm posting this to enrich mine.
- cortic 8y ago
  >Maybe try to rework this sentence The current state of our market system requires massive bailouts and massive funding into research and development, massive subsidies (e.g. arms), and an overworked and underpaid workforce to limp along and pay out a healthy dividend to the richest(few) investors. >source on this? Just look at any multi billion dollar company; whats the difference between shareholder payout and worker payout? How else would you define this system where a company can declare hundred million dollar profits while paying minimum wage? >Do you seriously not think that people work to enrich their own lives right now? We try. for the last 8 hours i worked to make money that would enrich my life, but my work made someone else a hundred times this amount so 1% of my last 8 hours was for me.
  - dexterdog 8y ago
    If somebody else is making 100x off of just your work you need to quit yesterday and find somebody to pay you 2x what you are currently making. They will be more than happy to do so as they will still be making a 50x profit on you. Either that or you have absolutely no clue as to how much value you actually create for your company. Nobody generates 100x profit, not even slaves.
    - cortic 8y ago
      thank you for your advice, i think you missed my point though.
      - dexterdog 8y ago
        I thought your point was that somebody else is actually making 99-100 dollars for every dollar that you make. I would like to know how you came to that number.
        cortic 8y ago
        i worked out those numbers roughly for myself. My point though, was; most of, or at least the majority of my working life is to enrich someone who is richer that could can ever be. This is the nature of the relationship between the shareholder and the common worker.

jon-wood 8y ago

The funding for UBI would require more funding than the current federal tax revenue. One of the things that would be necessary to make it work is redistribution of wealth. Taking taxes large corporates who are increasingly making more money through automation and the removal of jobs, so that it can be used to fund a better lifestyle for the majority of people. Sadly I don't see a political environment where that's actually viable any time soon, but at some point we're going to have to see a move in that direction because there will be an ever decreasing pool of jobs that require actual people.

throwaway76543 8y ago
The cost of UBI depends entirely on the magnitude of the benefit; your position is indefensible given we haven't established the magnitude. Obviously increasing welfare implies increased taxes. I don't see anything controversial there? I do agree the USA currently lacks the political will to move much in this direction.

wallace_f 8y ago

ubi isn't doing away with markets or the profit motive. it's just: here is enough money you don't die. so more people can pursue their passions. OP is probably excessively optimistic that will be science. in reality it will probably not be. but it's a lot better than useless bureaucracies, inefficiencies and the willingness to do whatever so you don't die

tomrod 8y ago

UBI currently exists, it's level is just 0,if you don't count existing community welfare programs.

pc86 8y ago
> UBI currently exists I mean if we're willfully misinterpreting what UBI is to prove a worthlessly pedantic point, sure.