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I don't buy that argument. I have purchased Blu phones for under $50,yubikey nano cost me ~50. Plus,it gets even cheaper with mass production. A cheap smartpho

I don't buy that argument. I have purchased Blu phones for under $50,yubikey nano cost me ~50. Plus,it gets even cheaper with mass production. A cheap smartphone without radio,screen,large battery with a custom os and a usb connection would be an even cheaper phone. The only things a personal hsm would add might be nfc and hardware rng. I'm surprised yubikey hasn't gotten cheaper even with companies like google using it.

lysp 8y ago
> I'm surprised yubikey hasn't gotten cheaper even with companies like google using it. The cost is probably much cheaper, but there is no reason for them to lower prices when there isn't really major (popular) competition. I think once Google releases their key for general sale, Yubi will be forced to drop prices to compete.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Google's key is, from what I understand, just a relabeled Feitian. You've been able to buy them for a long time.
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    Feitan are also way less reliable than Yubico. My Yubico keys have lived in my pocket on my keyring for six months, no problems. My feitan sat on a shelf, and its Bluetooth is now so unreliable I'm getting a second Yubico key for nfc.
tptacek 8y ago
That phone does not make the hardware security promises Yubico makes. You can't make a hardware security module with a cheap ARM core and nothing else.
- gonzo 8y ago
  True, but an ARM core and a ATECC608A ? - FIPS compliant RNG and key generation - Hardware based key protection - Secure (encrypted) on chip key (ECC, AES, SHA HMAC) and data storage - Guaranteed Unique 72-bit Serial Number - Boot validation
  - tptacek 8y ago
    If what you need is the management of 16 different NIST P-curve keys and nothing else, and you don't necessarily care if the whole package is secure against DPA, that part is a cheap way to get that. But that's not what people on this thread are asking for; they want it to do all the crypto stuff they do normally, with all the keys secured in hardware. I'm a little out of my depth on this stuff; I've done chipset work but my part of those projects always starts with the C code. Maybe you can accomplish what you want with a cheap crypto IC. I'm really just pushing back on the idea that because you can build a smartphone out of a cheap ARM core, you can also build an HSM out of one.
    - gonzo 8y ago
      > If what you need is the management of 16 different NIST P-curve keys and nothing else You can put AES keys in the slots and have the IC perform operations with them. > and you don't necessarily care if the whole package is secure against DPA, that part is a cheap way to get that. Go get the NDA datasheet. > (HSM out of ARM core alone) We agree here.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        That's AES (right, of course; I assume arbitrary small blob of data, but these are the operations the IC can do itself without you having to drag the key out into the SRAM of your MCU) for GCM, and P-curve ECC. It's not SSH, right, or Signal protocol. It's just designed to drive TLS, and can do U2F. Does the data sheet talk about hardware side channel mitigation?
        cf141q5325 8y ago
- badrabbit 8y ago
  Would it not be possible to use hardware that can make similar security promises using the cost saved by not having the LCD and Battery? USBArmory is around ~$100,I'm essentially talking about a mass produced user friendly version that cuts 40-60% of the cost due to mass production and slightly less extravagant hardware.

lysp 8y ago

> I'm surprised yubikey hasn't gotten cheaper even with companies like google using it. The cost is probably much cheaper, but there is no reason for them to lower prices when there isn't really major (popular) competition. I think once Google releases their key for general sale, Yubi will be forced to drop prices to compete.

tptacek 8y ago
Google's key is, from what I understand, just a relabeled Feitian. You've been able to buy them for a long time.
- freeone3000 8y ago
  Feitan are also way less reliable than Yubico. My Yubico keys have lived in my pocket on my keyring for six months, no problems. My feitan sat on a shelf, and its Bluetooth is now so unreliable I'm getting a second Yubico key for nfc.

tptacek 8y ago

That phone does not make the hardware security promises Yubico makes. You can't make a hardware security module with a cheap ARM core and nothing else.

gonzo 8y ago
True, but an ARM core and a ATECC608A ? - FIPS compliant RNG and key generation - Hardware based key protection - Secure (encrypted) on chip key (ECC, AES, SHA HMAC) and data storage - Guaranteed Unique 72-bit Serial Number - Boot validation
- tptacek 8y ago
  If what you need is the management of 16 different NIST P-curve keys and nothing else, and you don't necessarily care if the whole package is secure against DPA, that part is a cheap way to get that. But that's not what people on this thread are asking for; they want it to do all the crypto stuff they do normally, with all the keys secured in hardware. I'm a little out of my depth on this stuff; I've done chipset work but my part of those projects always starts with the C code. Maybe you can accomplish what you want with a cheap crypto IC. I'm really just pushing back on the idea that because you can build a smartphone out of a cheap ARM core, you can also build an HSM out of one.
  - gonzo 8y ago
    > If what you need is the management of 16 different NIST P-curve keys and nothing else You can put AES keys in the slots and have the IC perform operations with them. > and you don't necessarily care if the whole package is secure against DPA, that part is a cheap way to get that. Go get the NDA datasheet. > (HSM out of ARM core alone) We agree here.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      That's AES (right, of course; I assume arbitrary small blob of data, but these are the operations the IC can do itself without you having to drag the key out into the SRAM of your MCU) for GCM, and P-curve ECC. It's not SSH, right, or Signal protocol. It's just designed to drive TLS, and can do U2F. Does the data sheet talk about hardware side channel mitigation?
      - cf141q5325 8y ago
badrabbit 8y ago
Would it not be possible to use hardware that can make similar security promises using the cost saved by not having the LCD and Battery? USBArmory is around ~$100,I'm essentially talking about a mass produced user friendly version that cuts 40-60% of the cost due to mass production and slightly less extravagant hardware.