7 ms·

Honestly, I think we should just unionize everyone in the tech field. A single Union that handles and accepts all software developers, IT operations folks, soft

Honestly, I think we should just unionize everyone in the tech field. A single Union that handles and accepts all software developers, IT operations folks, software testers, etc and we protect our own and lobby for the laws to benefit us and our profession. The things these companies do to get around basic worker rights is deplorable and we need to organize and fight back, and befor you say you make a ton of money and love what you do so why unionize, ask yourself how many hours you worked overtime and didn’t get paid for it. Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen a colleague let go because they had some medical troubles. Ask yourself how many times a colleague on a visa told you they felt trapped. Ask yourself how many times you’ve heard of a colleague get fucked out of their vacation due to a critical issue. Ask yourself how much power you have to effect change when it comes to just general process and how we go about our day to day. Ask yourself how many times you’ve felt you’ve been asked to do something that was unethical and didn’t want to risk the financial implications and consequences of saying “No”. We need a union. Call it whatever you want, a guild, a bar, a union. Whatever. The point is, it’s time to organize and it’s time to start fighting back.

throwaway080383 8y ago
I'm sure this is not true for everyone reading this, but for me the answer to all those questions is zero times.
- phillc73 8y ago
  Nonetheless, if such a Tech Workers Union existed, joining as an act of solidarity would benefit all fellow members and offer you a level of protection to insure you never experienced any of the aforementioned scenarios.
  - eiieirurjdndjd 8y ago
    Not interested, personally. I can only picture being made worse off by being in a union. Fortunately, it’s insanely difficult to get well-paid ambitious people to join a union, so there is little danger I’ll come closer to experiencing a tech workers union than reading about the idea in impractical internet comments.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      > well-paid ambitious people Hollywood actors and other people in showbiz? Professional athletes? Doctors?* *https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doctors-union https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doct...
    - Frondo 8y ago
      It's not at all difficult to get well-paid and ambitious people to join a union. The Screen Actors' guild represents people who are as ambitious as, and far better paid than, the hottest tech superstars. What amazes me is, for how curious tech workers tend to be about, say, new frameworks or languages or whatever, they're so amazingly incurious when it comes to talk of unions--and in fact not just incurious, but so willing to repeat stuff that just isn't true.
      - ChrisLomont 8y ago
        >The Screen Actors' guild represents people who are as ambitious as, and far better paid than, the hottest tech superstars. Are you just making up SAG claims throughout this page? Did you look to see what SAG members actually make? Avg SAG member makes far less than a software developer. Tech superstars make well over an order of magnitude more than an avg SAG member. Tech superstars include unicorn founders, who again make more than an order of magnitude more than even the very top stars. Here's one place listing how low SAG members generally are paid. You can find others if you like. https://www.backstage.com/news/actors-income-falls-far-below-us-average/ https://www.backstage.com/news/actors-income-falls-far-below...
        Frondo 8y ago
        I didn't make any claims about the pay for all SAG members, but only that they are absolutely a union that highly ambitious, highly-paid people willingly join (counter to the parent poster's claim that unions don't appeal to such people). Also, yeah, a handful of tech company owners make more than actors? So? Does that matter at all to the rank and file, who, by fault of not acting collectively, are leaving money on the table year after year? "Your boss is a billionaire, don't unionize" is the argument to make here?
thrill 8y ago
No. I'm an adult. I handle my own issues.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  Curious: do you also have that attitude toward starting a company? Would you do it with no loans, no investments from others?
  - thrill 8y ago
    Why would I think the two should be equivalent or conflated? They are different audiences with different requirements, different risk tolerances, and outside of the shared work, likely different major goals.
    - ubernostrum 8y ago
      A corporation is a mechanism for individuals to pool capital and achieve greater return from that capital than any of them would using only their own personal resources. A union is a mechanism for individuals to pool labor and achieve greater return from that labor than any of them would using only their own personal resources. The only difference between them is the resource being pooled. As a result, I have great difficulty understanding why people are accepting of one but condemn the other.
      - rcoveson 8y ago
        Corporations pool resources to make things or offer services. Unions are just bargaining devices that attempt to tip the scales. If you want to compare unions to corporations, consider this: What if all the local companies got together and agreed to only pay tech workers minimum wage? By pooling their bargaining power, they can achieve a far better result! This is of course illegal (at least I'm pretty sure it is), but even if it weren't, it would be easy for startups to take advantage of: Suddenly, there's a surplus of tech workers looking hard for different work. Unions have the same problem: Some people might be happy to work for wages that the union considers unfair, causing the union to collapse. Unless, that is, there were some law requiring the businesses to only hire from the unions. I'm extremely happy to be employed in a field where I have natural bargaining power that doesn't need to be augmented by legislation. The day programmers unionize is a sad day indeed: It's just a few years before the whole profession is automated or outsourced away.
CydeWeys 8y ago
To give some examples of practices that unions might help prevent: I was a full-time employee of an enterprise software consulting company my first job out of college. We were paid salary and didn't get overtime. We did get comp time, but only for hours worked in excess of 95 every two-week paycheck (so you'd have to work 7.5 unpaid overtime hours per week until you started getting comp time). I also had several managers who wanted us to bill the contractual maximum of 40 hours per week for clients, which in practice meant that I worked a lot more than 40 hours per week once travel and various administrative tasks were factored in. I burned out at that job in less than four years and left to do something else that didn't involve so much time spent away from home at godforsaken little cities.
prolikewh0a 8y ago
while I agree with you, I don't think this would work, as most tech workers are pretty well off and simply don't have to deal with what tech contractors have to deal with. I get a strong "f%$k you I got mine, don't change anything" vibe working in the tech industry.
- ntsplnkv2 8y ago
  In terms of benefits, SV companies, modern tech companies, are typically the cream of the crop, so I think it mitigates the need. I don't think we need collective bargaining on salaries. But I do think workers should have a unified voice at the table, and at the very least have a political lobby for their rights.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    >In terms of benefits, SV companies, modern tech companies, are typically the cream of the crop, so I think it mitigates the need. There are a lot of lower level tech employees in modern tech companies that don't have the luxuries or benefits software engineers do and get stomped on all the time. It's really only engineers who have 'cream of the crop' jobs and benefits.
    - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
      Of course - most tech workers are not in this group. They would benefit from unionization - but outsourcing has decimated that ability. Speaking from a software engineers perspective, the need for unionization is pointless. Software engineers are at the top or near the top for most jobs in terms of compensation - so the need for unionization isn't as necessary.
  - deathanatos 8y ago
    Relative to cost of living, typical SV compensation is not "pretty well off" or "cream of the crop". It's not even close to the latter… My tech coworkers live in the dingiest of apartments. Housing prices are outpacing gains in salary, and the majority of housing is out of reach of the median tech-worker salary. There are some exceptional positions at exceptional companies, such as FAANG, but I strongly believe they're exceptional. Frankly when I look around my office I see either a bunch of young engineers working too long and too hard for a salary that won't really ever get them anywhere, or folks who already got their share of the pie. (And perhaps are quite fine on a SV salary.) I'm also strongly considering leaving the Bay Area, as I'm tired of trying to change the minds of a generation that doesn't want me here.
travisoneill1 8y ago
I've never been in a union but know people who have. From this small and biased sample of unions: - Pay is based on seniority, not skill - You have to please your boss from the company and also the union I don't want either of these things. If there is a union where this doesn't happen then I could consider it.
- JamesBarney 8y ago
  Not all unions, just some blue collar unions. The american bar and american medical association are also de facto unions. Lets call it a professional organization instead, and I think what most of us want is collaborative bargaining around IP(companies doesn't own your off hours) and non-competes.
  - Gorbzel 8y ago
    The ABA doesn't do much if anything to benefit lawyers' working conditions. It enables and perpetuates the regulated monopoly that makes it a giant crapshoot of an industry to work in.
- Frondo 8y ago
  That is a small and biased sample, and ignores a union representing the most visible people in society: the screen actors' guild. Think Tom Cruise is paid based on seniority and not skill?
  - ChrisLomont 8y ago
    Isn't selecting the SAG an even smaller and biased sample?
    - Frondo 8y ago
      I'm showing one very easily understood counterexample to "unions pay based on seniority" to expand on the parent poster's "small and biased" sample and show that unions are what their members make of them.
donotwantatall 8y ago
i have zero interest in being forced to support your politics with my work effort
wz1000 8y ago
https://iww.org/unions/dept500/iu560 https://iww.org/unions/dept500/iu560
dev_north_east 8y ago
> Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen a colleague let go because they had some medical troubles. Never. > Ask yourself how many times a colleague on a visa told you they felt trapped. Never. > Ask yourself how many times you’ve heard of a colleague get fucked out of their vacation due to a critical issue. Never. > Ask yourself how much power you have to effect change when it comes to just general process Hmm, somewhat. All places I've worked have been pretty responsive. Current place moreso. I suggest the above is USA-specific and nothing to do with unionised programmers.
- christophilus 8y ago
  I work in the USA and also answer "never" to all of the above. Regarding the last bullet point, I've helped to change general processes in almost every place that I've ever worked. I'm genuinely curious to hear from folks who have experienced these bullet points: where did you work at the time?

throwaway080383 8y ago

I'm sure this is not true for everyone reading this, but for me the answer to all those questions is zero times.

phillc73 8y ago
Nonetheless, if such a Tech Workers Union existed, joining as an act of solidarity would benefit all fellow members and offer you a level of protection to insure you never experienced any of the aforementioned scenarios.
- eiieirurjdndjd 8y ago
  Not interested, personally. I can only picture being made worse off by being in a union. Fortunately, it’s insanely difficult to get well-paid ambitious people to join a union, so there is little danger I’ll come closer to experiencing a tech workers union than reading about the idea in impractical internet comments.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    > well-paid ambitious people Hollywood actors and other people in showbiz? Professional athletes? Doctors?* *https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doctors-union https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doct...
  - Frondo 8y ago
    It's not at all difficult to get well-paid and ambitious people to join a union. The Screen Actors' guild represents people who are as ambitious as, and far better paid than, the hottest tech superstars. What amazes me is, for how curious tech workers tend to be about, say, new frameworks or languages or whatever, they're so amazingly incurious when it comes to talk of unions--and in fact not just incurious, but so willing to repeat stuff that just isn't true.
    - ChrisLomont 8y ago
      >The Screen Actors' guild represents people who are as ambitious as, and far better paid than, the hottest tech superstars. Are you just making up SAG claims throughout this page? Did you look to see what SAG members actually make? Avg SAG member makes far less than a software developer. Tech superstars make well over an order of magnitude more than an avg SAG member. Tech superstars include unicorn founders, who again make more than an order of magnitude more than even the very top stars. Here's one place listing how low SAG members generally are paid. You can find others if you like. https://www.backstage.com/news/actors-income-falls-far-below-us-average/ https://www.backstage.com/news/actors-income-falls-far-below...
      - Frondo 8y ago
        I didn't make any claims about the pay for all SAG members, but only that they are absolutely a union that highly ambitious, highly-paid people willingly join (counter to the parent poster's claim that unions don't appeal to such people). Also, yeah, a handful of tech company owners make more than actors? So? Does that matter at all to the rank and file, who, by fault of not acting collectively, are leaving money on the table year after year? "Your boss is a billionaire, don't unionize" is the argument to make here?

thrill 8y ago

No. I'm an adult. I handle my own issues.

ubernostrum 8y ago
Curious: do you also have that attitude toward starting a company? Would you do it with no loans, no investments from others?
- thrill 8y ago
  Why would I think the two should be equivalent or conflated? They are different audiences with different requirements, different risk tolerances, and outside of the shared work, likely different major goals.
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    A corporation is a mechanism for individuals to pool capital and achieve greater return from that capital than any of them would using only their own personal resources. A union is a mechanism for individuals to pool labor and achieve greater return from that labor than any of them would using only their own personal resources. The only difference between them is the resource being pooled. As a result, I have great difficulty understanding why people are accepting of one but condemn the other.
    - rcoveson 8y ago
      Corporations pool resources to make things or offer services. Unions are just bargaining devices that attempt to tip the scales. If you want to compare unions to corporations, consider this: What if all the local companies got together and agreed to only pay tech workers minimum wage? By pooling their bargaining power, they can achieve a far better result! This is of course illegal (at least I'm pretty sure it is), but even if it weren't, it would be easy for startups to take advantage of: Suddenly, there's a surplus of tech workers looking hard for different work. Unions have the same problem: Some people might be happy to work for wages that the union considers unfair, causing the union to collapse. Unless, that is, there were some law requiring the businesses to only hire from the unions. I'm extremely happy to be employed in a field where I have natural bargaining power that doesn't need to be augmented by legislation. The day programmers unionize is a sad day indeed: It's just a few years before the whole profession is automated or outsourced away.

CydeWeys 8y ago

To give some examples of practices that unions might help prevent: I was a full-time employee of an enterprise software consulting company my first job out of college. We were paid salary and didn't get overtime. We did get comp time, but only for hours worked in excess of 95 every two-week paycheck (so you'd have to work 7.5 unpaid overtime hours per week until you started getting comp time). I also had several managers who wanted us to bill the contractual maximum of 40 hours per week for clients, which in practice meant that I worked a lot more than 40 hours per week once travel and various administrative tasks were factored in. I burned out at that job in less than four years and left to do something else that didn't involve so much time spent away from home at godforsaken little cities.

prolikewh0a 8y ago

while I agree with you, I don't think this would work, as most tech workers are pretty well off and simply don't have to deal with what tech contractors have to deal with. I get a strong "f%$k you I got mine, don't change anything" vibe working in the tech industry.

ntsplnkv2 8y ago
In terms of benefits, SV companies, modern tech companies, are typically the cream of the crop, so I think it mitigates the need. I don't think we need collective bargaining on salaries. But I do think workers should have a unified voice at the table, and at the very least have a political lobby for their rights.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >In terms of benefits, SV companies, modern tech companies, are typically the cream of the crop, so I think it mitigates the need. There are a lot of lower level tech employees in modern tech companies that don't have the luxuries or benefits software engineers do and get stomped on all the time. It's really only engineers who have 'cream of the crop' jobs and benefits.
  - ntsplnkv2 8y ago
    Of course - most tech workers are not in this group. They would benefit from unionization - but outsourcing has decimated that ability. Speaking from a software engineers perspective, the need for unionization is pointless. Software engineers are at the top or near the top for most jobs in terms of compensation - so the need for unionization isn't as necessary.
- deathanatos 8y ago
  Relative to cost of living, typical SV compensation is not "pretty well off" or "cream of the crop". It's not even close to the latter… My tech coworkers live in the dingiest of apartments. Housing prices are outpacing gains in salary, and the majority of housing is out of reach of the median tech-worker salary. There are some exceptional positions at exceptional companies, such as FAANG, but I strongly believe they're exceptional. Frankly when I look around my office I see either a bunch of young engineers working too long and too hard for a salary that won't really ever get them anywhere, or folks who already got their share of the pie. (And perhaps are quite fine on a SV salary.) I'm also strongly considering leaving the Bay Area, as I'm tired of trying to change the minds of a generation that doesn't want me here.

travisoneill1 8y ago

I've never been in a union but know people who have. From this small and biased sample of unions: - Pay is based on seniority, not skill - You have to please your boss from the company and also the union I don't want either of these things. If there is a union where this doesn't happen then I could consider it.

JamesBarney 8y ago
Not all unions, just some blue collar unions. The american bar and american medical association are also de facto unions. Lets call it a professional organization instead, and I think what most of us want is collaborative bargaining around IP(companies doesn't own your off hours) and non-competes.
- Gorbzel 8y ago
  The ABA doesn't do much if anything to benefit lawyers' working conditions. It enables and perpetuates the regulated monopoly that makes it a giant crapshoot of an industry to work in.
Frondo 8y ago
That is a small and biased sample, and ignores a union representing the most visible people in society: the screen actors' guild. Think Tom Cruise is paid based on seniority and not skill?
- ChrisLomont 8y ago
  Isn't selecting the SAG an even smaller and biased sample?
  - Frondo 8y ago
    I'm showing one very easily understood counterexample to "unions pay based on seniority" to expand on the parent poster's "small and biased" sample and show that unions are what their members make of them.

donotwantatall 8y ago

i have zero interest in being forced to support your politics with my work effort

wz1000 8y ago

https://iww.org/unions/dept500/iu560 https://iww.org/unions/dept500/iu560

dev_north_east 8y ago

> Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen a colleague let go because they had some medical troubles. Never. > Ask yourself how many times a colleague on a visa told you they felt trapped. Never. > Ask yourself how many times you’ve heard of a colleague get fucked out of their vacation due to a critical issue. Never. > Ask yourself how much power you have to effect change when it comes to just general process Hmm, somewhat. All places I've worked have been pretty responsive. Current place moreso. I suggest the above is USA-specific and nothing to do with unionised programmers.

christophilus 8y ago
I work in the USA and also answer "never" to all of the above. Regarding the last bullet point, I've helped to change general processes in almost every place that I've ever worked. I'm genuinely curious to hear from folks who have experienced these bullet points: where did you work at the time?