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You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participating. For some reason, however, many of the people I know that go to Burning Man, and many of the kinds of people that typically do go, are never involved in those kinds of local organising initiatives... It would be nice if these ideals about art were more commonly expressed and engaged with in the areas where they are really sorely needed, rather than in a remote place that people need to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get to and be in.

WalterSear 8y ago
Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important ingroup, because they feel that the larger social environment has not provided them with that psychological support they need - people they identify with and share their values. Important enough to traipse from all over the world to the middle of nowhere to be a part of it. This may or may not be actually the case - perhaps the perception of it is in part what makes the reality. It is, IMHO, what caused it's initial resonance and success; it was real at one point, for many participants. So, it's not realistic to expect these personal needs for community to be transferable to just anywhere, unless that other community is also able to meet those needs. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with. Let's leave out a few words to get something more universal: "People don't inherently do good - they do things for themselves, and that includes giving and sharing in the support of a community they identify with."
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Whatever community you might or might not belong to, as of 2018, it would probably consist of human beings.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Any able-body can get to this >>can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert if they work hard enough.
- the_af 8y ago
  No, not really. Maybe the readers of HN can, though. Which I suppose is part of user killantics' point.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    I'm sorry, but this is such a toxic mentality. Yes any able-body person that wants to can work and take a week off if they wanted to. Most don't, and many can't because of responsibilities such as having kids.
    - blueline 8y ago
      > Yes any able-body person that wants to can work and take a week off if they wanted to. Most don't it's really alarming that you believe this
    - barbs 8y ago
      You can bring your kids
      - c22 8y ago
        And they're free under 12...
    - bfuller 8y ago
      Any person? You sure?
    - burkaman 8y ago
      Not sure what country you live in, but the US has no legally mandated vacation time. 23% of private sector workers get 0 days. https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-dont-get-paid-time-off-for-holidays-or-vacation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-d...
alevskaya 8y ago
No one is claiming that BM is a replacement for local civic involvement! But I also don’t like the moral tone of claims about what other people -should- be doing with their time. Sure, some people just go out there to party - who cares? I recall H. L. Mencken: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” As much as we’d like to make it more accessible, it -is- a weird art event in the remote desert, logistically limited to a small number of people. Look, the first step to civic engagement is actually thinking it’s something worth caring about. I grew up in an impoverished, hollowed-out place - I know it might sound ridiculous, but as an American in my generation the very idea of ‘society’ can be a hard concept to pick up as we don’t always get the chance to experience it growing up. Even a toy example can be illuminating to idiots like I was...
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  It's not the partying that people object to. It's partying whilst exclaiming "We're saving the world!"
  - P_I_Staker 8y ago
    Yes, the pretentiousness can be over-the top. They literally see themselves as a global movement. I have the same problem with TED. It's just a place for privileged people to rub elbows and pretend they're doing something for the betterment of society.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  Many people talk about burning man as if it is an experiment for a new kind of alternative society and your comment was reminiscent of that kind of talk - "we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation... it’s worth trying to address that". This rhetoric always sounds to me like burners believe they have found the cure and if only everyone would see the world as they do we would live in harmony. I've never been to a burn but I do agree with these diagnoses about the shortcomings of our society. I also make efforts in my community to confront these problems and it is a whole lot harder to change things than just going out and partying in the desert. I have no problem with people going out and partying but I don't think people should be claiming that it is much more than just that - a party.
funfunfun 8y ago
You're placing your own values on the event. People get mad because they don't think its "green enough" too. Or "vegan enough" or whatever. There are lots of things people can do in their communities. You don't have to do any of them to burn the man. I think Burning Man participants should use their skills to build public showers for the homeless encampments along the sidewalks of San Francisco.
P_I_Staker 8y ago
On your first point, inclusiveness and diversity is great; the issue isn't that rich people are joining in the fun, the problem is when values get warped. What I found most striking was the paid servants and private cities described. We can argue about what does and doesn't encompass the values of something like Burning Man, but I think that's clearly outside the spirit of the festival; and it's a festival where spirit and values are deemed important. If they wanted to get dirty, and rough it out, I don't think anyone would have a problem. It's the idea of fiefdoms forming with lords and servants, and the event turning into an expensive theme park for the rich that's so offensive.
c22 8y ago
For what it's worth I managed to attend Burning Man for $500 all inclusive one year while I was between jobs on a low income ticket, admittedly, though, using camping gear I already owned. I also attended multiple years while working at a slightly-above wage retail job, but I did have to make Burning Man a financial priority for myself those years.

WalterSear 8y ago

Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important ingroup, because they feel that the larger social environment has not provided them with that psychological support they need - people they identify with and share their values. Important enough to traipse from all over the world to the middle of nowhere to be a part of it. This may or may not be actually the case - perhaps the perception of it is in part what makes the reality. It is, IMHO, what caused it's initial resonance and success; it was real at one point, for many participants. So, it's not realistic to expect these personal needs for community to be transferable to just anywhere, unless that other community is also able to meet those needs. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with.

stcredzero 8y ago
Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with. Let's leave out a few words to get something more universal: "People don't inherently do good - they do things for themselves, and that includes giving and sharing in the support of a community they identify with."
- WalterSear 8y ago
  I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Whatever community you might or might not belong to, as of 2018, it would probably consist of human beings.

eanzenberg 8y ago

Any able-body can get to this >>can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert if they work hard enough.

the_af 8y ago
No, not really. Maybe the readers of HN can, though. Which I suppose is part of user killantics' point.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  I'm sorry, but this is such a toxic mentality. Yes any able-body person that wants to can work and take a week off if they wanted to. Most don't, and many can't because of responsibilities such as having kids.
  - blueline 8y ago
    > Yes any able-body person that wants to can work and take a week off if they wanted to. Most don't it's really alarming that you believe this
  - barbs 8y ago
    You can bring your kids
    - c22 8y ago
      And they're free under 12...
  - bfuller 8y ago
    Any person? You sure?
  - burkaman 8y ago
    Not sure what country you live in, but the US has no legally mandated vacation time. 23% of private sector workers get 0 days. https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-dont-get-paid-time-off-for-holidays-or-vacation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/millions-of-working-people-d...

alevskaya 8y ago

No one is claiming that BM is a replacement for local civic involvement! But I also don’t like the moral tone of claims about what other people -should- be doing with their time. Sure, some people just go out there to party - who cares? I recall H. L. Mencken: “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” As much as we’d like to make it more accessible, it -is- a weird art event in the remote desert, logistically limited to a small number of people. Look, the first step to civic engagement is actually thinking it’s something worth caring about. I grew up in an impoverished, hollowed-out place - I know it might sound ridiculous, but as an American in my generation the very idea of ‘society’ can be a hard concept to pick up as we don’t always get the chance to experience it growing up. Even a toy example can be illuminating to idiots like I was...

erikpukinskis 8y ago
It's not the partying that people object to. It's partying whilst exclaiming "We're saving the world!"
- P_I_Staker 8y ago
  Yes, the pretentiousness can be over-the top. They literally see themselves as a global movement. I have the same problem with TED. It's just a place for privileged people to rub elbows and pretend they're doing something for the betterment of society.
kiliantics 8y ago
Many people talk about burning man as if it is an experiment for a new kind of alternative society and your comment was reminiscent of that kind of talk - "we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation... it’s worth trying to address that". This rhetoric always sounds to me like burners believe they have found the cure and if only everyone would see the world as they do we would live in harmony. I've never been to a burn but I do agree with these diagnoses about the shortcomings of our society. I also make efforts in my community to confront these problems and it is a whole lot harder to change things than just going out and partying in the desert. I have no problem with people going out and partying but I don't think people should be claiming that it is much more than just that - a party.

funfunfun 8y ago

You're placing your own values on the event. People get mad because they don't think its "green enough" too. Or "vegan enough" or whatever. There are lots of things people can do in their communities. You don't have to do any of them to burn the man. I think Burning Man participants should use their skills to build public showers for the homeless encampments along the sidewalks of San Francisco.

P_I_Staker 8y ago

On your first point, inclusiveness and diversity is great; the issue isn't that rich people are joining in the fun, the problem is when values get warped. What I found most striking was the paid servants and private cities described. We can argue about what does and doesn't encompass the values of something like Burning Man, but I think that's clearly outside the spirit of the festival; and it's a festival where spirit and values are deemed important. If they wanted to get dirty, and rough it out, I don't think anyone would have a problem. It's the idea of fiefdoms forming with lords and servants, and the event turning into an expensive theme park for the rich that's so offensive.

c22 8y ago

For what it's worth I managed to attend Burning Man for $500 all inclusive one year while I was between jobs on a low income ticket, admittedly, though, using camping gear I already owned. I also attended multiple years while working at a slightly-above wage retail job, but I did have to make Burning Man a financial priority for myself those years.