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I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or m

I started and ran a science-oriented theme camp out there for over a decade as an impoverished academic, and a lot of my friends in the Bay Area help build or manage the event. I’m neither rich nor a hippy. To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle. But people can learn, and when they get involved in build projects or camps out there they do. They start trying. It’s amateur art hour write very large, but the beauty of it is how many people start trying to make something of their own, sometimes with amazing results. The event is flawed as hell and always has been, but it remains an astounding expression of labor devoted to the amateur’s search for meaning through creation. It’s art will never appeal to the traditional critic who worries more about the statement of art than it’s artifact. They can look down their noses at the idealism of those who thought to try to make something for once, instead of leaving the important job of art to those who know better, who have the right ideals, the right politics, the right message. We’re going to continue to do carpentry, to make circuit boards, to write software, and to teach others to get involved in the art of trying.

saganus 8y ago
"The art of trying" sounds like a very interesting concept. Wouldn't mind reading an article on that, if you ever feel like writing it :)
kiliantics 8y ago
You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participating. For some reason, however, many of the people I know that go to Burning Man, and many of the kinds of people that typically do go, are never involved in those kinds of local organising initiatives... It would be nice if these ideals about art were more commonly expressed and engaged with in the areas where they are really sorely needed, rather than in a remote place that people need to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get to and be in.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important ingroup, because they feel that the larger social environment has not provided them with that psychological support they need - people they identify with and share their values. Important enough to traipse from all over the world to the middle of nowhere to be a part of it. This may or may not be actually the case - perhaps the perception of it is in part what makes the reality. It is, IMHO, what caused it's initial resonance and success; it was real at one point, for many participants. So, it's not realistic to expect these personal needs for community to be transferable to just anywhere, unless that other community is also able to meet those needs. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with. Let's leave out a few words to get something more universal: "People don't inherently do good - they do things for themselves, and that includes giving and sharing in the support of a community they identify with."
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?
jancsika 8y ago
> To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle. Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be immensely more efficient to have a forum where you teach everyone how to type <ctrl-shift-c> in their browser to inflate the work shed hidden there? Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles. It's also less of a risk if those people happen to be high at the time. Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners.
- komali2 8y ago
  >Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be [programming]? Why does art have to be programming art? Why do they have to be learning about computers? >They can look down their noses at the idealism of those who thought to try to make something for once, instead of leaving the important job of art to those who know better, who have the right ideals, the right politics, the right message. Isn't this just "looking down your nose" at someone who wants to build sheds instead of messing about in chrome dev tools?
- egypturnash 8y ago
  > Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles. I seriously cannot tell if you are trolling or not. "Helping to build a sculpture-cum-shelter out in the desert" is worlds away from "making someone else's webpage rotate". And making a physical thing is a very different feeling from making a digital thing. I make comics and put them online; I also print them, and there is a lot more satisfaction in having a book I can put on my shelf and say "I made this" than a webpage I can point to. The book will probably survive me longer than the webpage, which vanishes up to a year after the account set up to auto-renew the domain and hosting runs out of money. > Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners. True dat. There's also a buttload of smaller Burns in various places that haven't gotten big enough to be as much of a tempting target.
irrational 8y ago
>or recognize a turnbuckle Heh, I've used these things a lot when building garden wire supports for plants, but I never knew their name!
funfunfun 8y ago
I think this is one of the best descriptions (or defenses?) of the festival I've ever read. Every year there are articles about how Burning Man has 'lost' or is 'done'. Every year its still there, inspiring a new generation of these articles. "The event is flawed as hell and always has been" is my new response to people who are consider going and worry they missed the party
- Chathamization 8y ago
  > Every year there are articles about how Burning Man has 'lost' or is 'done'. Yeah, I wonder what the earliest article about that is. I did a brief search for the decline of Burning Man found a Wired article from 1997[1] (and of course numerous people talking about the decline later, like this blog post from 2004[2]). It reminds me of all those "I'm 13, is it too late for me to start learning programming/body building/learning the guitar/studying Japanese/etc." type posts. If you don't do something you're interested in because you think its too late, there's a good chance that a decade later you'll be kicking yourself for not having done it. [1] https://www.wired.com/1997/07/burning-man-burnout/ https://www.wired.com/1997/07/burning-man-burnout/ [2] https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=7447 https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=7447
  - gascan 8y ago
    If you don't do something you're interested in because you think its too late... A proverb I remind myself of regularly: The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Including the times when I look out my window and wish my sapling was a bit older.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      “A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”
  - baxtr 8y ago
    Reminds me of the “Worst wasp season in 20 years” articles we get here in Germany every year...
Uhhrrr 8y ago
That is how I used the event too (I went eleven years, non-consecutively), but I think the Man also serves as a memento mori, with the event becoming a celebration of temporariness. That in turn helps drive the gleeful amateurism, experimentation, and participation that goes on there.
andrei_says_ 8y ago
Burningman blew off the glass ceiling off of “creativity” and “art” for me, and most importantly, showed me that such a glass ceiling exists. I deeply grateful for this. The open invite for participation and collaboration on a large scale is another wonderful aspect.
ddingus 8y ago
The art of trying... I appreciate your take on the event.
biztos 8y ago
> Its art will never appeal to the traditional critic who worries more about the statement of art than it’s artifact. That didn't stop the Smithsonian from trying to take it "seriously"[0], nor the Art World from objecting to that[1]. Perhaps weirdly, I applaud both things, because as far as I can tell you're right about what the point of BM art is. (I am one of the few? many? people to have never attended Burning Man, but to have contributed to its art. I'm probably biased and ill-informed, but I like your take on it.) [0]: https://americanart.si.edu/exhibitions/burning-man https://americanart.si.edu/exhibitions/burning-man [1]: Argh! Can't find it online but IIRC either Frieze or Flash Art had a pretty on-point takedown of the show from the "serious art" point of view.
pokemongoaway 8y ago
No need to justify doing fun things, but I don't see evidence that people get more done there than they do in the real world, which is too uninspiring. I've been around enough burners to know how their social heirarchies work. Sure there are exceptions, but I don't see why we shouldn't recognize something that becomes the rule. Also, the diversity of acceptable opinion there is very narrow - and this is another aspect of many of the burner social heirarchies. Of course anyone who wants to build art, get inspired, party, etc - should do that and strive for greatness. But the reality is that most people who go to burning man get more done for and because of "the real world" than what they do for or because of burning man. The perception that human interactions at burning man are somehow truer than the ones in every day Life is delusional. It's more of an escape.

saganus 8y ago

"The art of trying" sounds like a very interesting concept. Wouldn't mind reading an article on that, if you ever feel like writing it :)

kiliantics 8y ago

You may not be rich, but you are not poor. How can these projects be about civic participation if they're not inclusive to the kinds of people that can't afford to take time off work and trek across the country to go camping in the desert? There are lots of ways people try to address the problems of our "highly commodified, transactional society" within their own communities, where everyone is capable of participating. For some reason, however, many of the people I know that go to Burning Man, and many of the kinds of people that typically do go, are never involved in those kinds of local organising initiatives... It would be nice if these ideals about art were more commonly expressed and engaged with in the areas where they are really sorely needed, rather than in a remote place that people need to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to get to and be in.

WalterSear 8y ago
Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. Humans are more inclined to be altruistic to their in-group, and to see their in-group as 'everyone'. Often without noticing. Burning man is, to some people, a very important ingroup, because they feel that the larger social environment has not provided them with that psychological support they need - people they identify with and share their values. Important enough to traipse from all over the world to the middle of nowhere to be a part of it. This may or may not be actually the case - perhaps the perception of it is in part what makes the reality. It is, IMHO, what caused it's initial resonance and success; it was real at one point, for many participants. So, it's not realistic to expect these personal needs for community to be transferable to just anywhere, unless that other community is also able to meet those needs. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Hopefully not treading on too many toes, but I would hazard, being part of an in-group rather than idealogies that are being used to as a reason to come together, are closer to what drives Burning man's economy of sharing, than actual altruism. What you just described is the actual altruism. I'm positing that people don't go to burning man inherently to do good - they do it for themselves, and that includes the giving and sharing, in the support of a community they identify with. Let's leave out a few words to get something more universal: "People don't inherently do good - they do things for themselves, and that includes giving and sharing in the support of a community they identify with."
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    I'm vegan. What community do I identify? How am I fostering it? How does saving a being, that I'll never meet, return to me in the tangible manner of a community?

jancsika 8y ago

> To me, the fundamental idea of the event is that we’ve become divorced from the act of creation and civic participation due to being enmeshed in a highly commodified, transactional society and that it’s worth trying to address that. Most people can’t use a torque-driver or recognize a turnbuckle. Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be immensely more efficient to have a forum where you teach everyone how to type <ctrl-shift-c> in their browser to inflate the work shed hidden there? Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles. It's also less of a risk if those people happen to be high at the time. Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners.

komali2 8y ago
>Why is a physical space needed for this? Wouldn't it be [programming]? Why does art have to be programming art? Why do they have to be learning about computers? >They can look down their noses at the idealism of those who thought to try to make something for once, instead of leaving the important job of art to those who know better, who have the right ideals, the right politics, the right message. Isn't this just "looking down your nose" at someone who wants to build sheds instead of messing about in chrome dev tools?
egypturnash 8y ago
> Throwing a web animation to slowly rotate Google's search page around for eternity seems a way more practical expression of the reach of the power of human creativity than giving random people torque-drivers and turnbuckles. I seriously cannot tell if you are trolling or not. "Helping to build a sculpture-cum-shelter out in the desert" is worlds away from "making someone else's webpage rotate". And making a physical thing is a very different feeling from making a digital thing. I make comics and put them online; I also print them, and there is a lot more satisfaction in having a book I can put on my shelf and say "I made this" than a webpage I can point to. The book will probably survive me longer than the webpage, which vanishes up to a year after the account set up to auto-renew the domain and hosting runs out of money. > Also, there's no practical attack where highway patrol can show up and throttle the forum traffic to generate quick cash by arresting all the stoners. True dat. There's also a buttload of smaller Burns in various places that haven't gotten big enough to be as much of a tempting target.

irrational 8y ago

>or recognize a turnbuckle Heh, I've used these things a lot when building garden wire supports for plants, but I never knew their name!

funfunfun 8y ago

I think this is one of the best descriptions (or defenses?) of the festival I've ever read. Every year there are articles about how Burning Man has 'lost' or is 'done'. Every year its still there, inspiring a new generation of these articles. "The event is flawed as hell and always has been" is my new response to people who are consider going and worry they missed the party

Chathamization 8y ago
> Every year there are articles about how Burning Man has 'lost' or is 'done'. Yeah, I wonder what the earliest article about that is. I did a brief search for the decline of Burning Man found a Wired article from 1997[1] (and of course numerous people talking about the decline later, like this blog post from 2004[2]). It reminds me of all those "I'm 13, is it too late for me to start learning programming/body building/learning the guitar/studying Japanese/etc." type posts. If you don't do something you're interested in because you think its too late, there's a good chance that a decade later you'll be kicking yourself for not having done it. [1] https://www.wired.com/1997/07/burning-man-burnout/ https://www.wired.com/1997/07/burning-man-burnout/ [2] https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=7447 https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=7447
- gascan 8y ago
  If you don't do something you're interested in because you think its too late... A proverb I remind myself of regularly: The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Including the times when I look out my window and wish my sapling was a bit older.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    “A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”
- baxtr 8y ago
  Reminds me of the “Worst wasp season in 20 years” articles we get here in Germany every year...

Uhhrrr 8y ago

That is how I used the event too (I went eleven years, non-consecutively), but I think the Man also serves as a memento mori, with the event becoming a celebration of temporariness. That in turn helps drive the gleeful amateurism, experimentation, and participation that goes on there.

andrei_says_ 8y ago

Burningman blew off the glass ceiling off of “creativity” and “art” for me, and most importantly, showed me that such a glass ceiling exists. I deeply grateful for this. The open invite for participation and collaboration on a large scale is another wonderful aspect.

ddingus 8y ago

The art of trying... I appreciate your take on the event.

biztos 8y ago

> Its art will never appeal to the traditional critic who worries more about the statement of art than it’s artifact. That didn't stop the Smithsonian from trying to take it "seriously"[0], nor the Art World from objecting to that[1]. Perhaps weirdly, I applaud both things, because as far as I can tell you're right about what the point of BM art is. (I am one of the few? many? people to have never attended Burning Man, but to have contributed to its art. I'm probably biased and ill-informed, but I like your take on it.) [0]: https://americanart.si.edu/exhibitions/burning-man https://americanart.si.edu/exhibitions/burning-man [1]: Argh! Can't find it online but IIRC either Frieze or Flash Art had a pretty on-point takedown of the show from the "serious art" point of view.

pokemongoaway 8y ago

No need to justify doing fun things, but I don't see evidence that people get more done there than they do in the real world, which is too uninspiring. I've been around enough burners to know how their social heirarchies work. Sure there are exceptions, but I don't see why we shouldn't recognize something that becomes the rule. Also, the diversity of acceptable opinion there is very narrow - and this is another aspect of many of the burner social heirarchies. Of course anyone who wants to build art, get inspired, party, etc - should do that and strive for greatness. But the reality is that most people who go to burning man get more done for and because of "the real world" than what they do for or because of burning man. The perception that human interactions at burning man are somehow truer than the ones in every day Life is delusional. It's more of an escape.