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Even at very low speeds, a civilization with a 10 million year "head start" (which is nothing on the timescale of the universe) would be able to send autonomous

Even at very low speeds, a civilization with a 10 million year "head start" (which is nothing on the timescale of the universe) would be able to send autonomous robots across the galaxy. At least that what we would do if we had sufficient enough technology. This is essentially the paradox.

DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
So many assumptions here. Maybe they’d be able to, but why would they want to? What’s the point of probing a galaxy that you can only ever explore below the speed of light, at the cost of ungodly amounts of energy and eons of time? Why wouldn’t that same civilization stick within 1-100 light years instead? There is only a paradox if an advanced civilization with high tech is so irrational that they can’t control their breeding and doesn’t care about time dilation and efficient use of resources. It also assumes that it’s safe to broadcast your presence to the whole galaxy that way. It assumes a lot of unproven ideas and then hand waves at a “sufficiently advanced” species that has only apparently enjoyed technological advancement rather than personal or social advancement. Maybe humans as we know them would spread unmanned probes across the galaxy for the sake of doing it, but I have doubts that humans capable of th feat would do it. I suspect we’d be wiser, or we’d be dead.
Razengan 8y ago
That so-called paradox takes the following assumptions: • That it is possible for a region as large as even a single galaxy to ever be "full" of one species or their creations. • That anything can keep spreading indefinitely, and remain intact, not only across the gargantuan distances involved but also over potentially millions of years for other species to encounter them. • That intelligent life wants to keep spreading or exploring indefinitely. As opposed to, say, creating VR universes of its own and attaining contentment within them. • That there are only a few "directions" into which species or machines can spread across the universe, for them to run into each other. • That there are no "stabilizing" forces – natural or adversarial – which counter rampant expansion.
WilliamEdward 8y ago
As others have pointed out there are 50 thousand assumptions being made here, but one of the biggest is why you assume technology can ever be efficient enough for this? The entire universe is limited to the periodic table. You would need to have a device made entirely out of material that has a half life greater than millions of years, and a battery that can last that long without sunlight. I'm not saying it's impossible because technology is often surprising, but that's a fundamental limitation that so far we know cannot be overcome. Edit: Even if the robot behaved in a self-sustaining manner, this further assumes a perfect, unobstructed trajectory and asteroids full of essential materials are on the route to earth.
snowwrestler 8y ago
> Even at very low speeds, a civilization with a 10 million year "head start" (which is nothing on the timescale of the universe) would be able to send autonomous robots across the galaxy. I see this sort of statement all the time, and we have no empirical evidence it is true. As this article says, even this simple "Starshot" concept is "a monumental engineering challenge that will require huge leaps in technology for spacecraft design, propulsion and communication." And all the challenges are fundamentally physical, involving issues of weight, strength, density, power density, thermodynamics, etc. Unless they make some near-magical breakthrough in physics, a civilization one million years older than our own would find it just as difficult as we will! And what if some galactic civilization has already done this? Are we likely to detect a spacecraft "just 3 to 12 feet across and weigh as little as a thimbleful of water" passing somewhere through our solar system at 20% C?
- mihaifm 8y ago
  It's usually the explorers who do the detection and contact, while the lesser civilization simply acknowledges their presence. I don't think physics is a roadblock for space exploration at this point. We just need to figure out asteroid mining and building in space, after that we can send robots driven by AI to other systems, at low speeds. Once they reach other systems they would refuel, build more robots and carry on. It's a massive engineering challange, but it's quite predictable within a few thousand years (if we don't destroy ourselves by then).

DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago

So many assumptions here. Maybe they’d be able to, but why would they want to? What’s the point of probing a galaxy that you can only ever explore below the speed of light, at the cost of ungodly amounts of energy and eons of time? Why wouldn’t that same civilization stick within 1-100 light years instead? There is only a paradox if an advanced civilization with high tech is so irrational that they can’t control their breeding and doesn’t care about time dilation and efficient use of resources. It also assumes that it’s safe to broadcast your presence to the whole galaxy that way. It assumes a lot of unproven ideas and then hand waves at a “sufficiently advanced” species that has only apparently enjoyed technological advancement rather than personal or social advancement. Maybe humans as we know them would spread unmanned probes across the galaxy for the sake of doing it, but I have doubts that humans capable of th feat would do it. I suspect we’d be wiser, or we’d be dead.

Razengan 8y ago

That so-called paradox takes the following assumptions: • That it is possible for a region as large as even a single galaxy to ever be "full" of one species or their creations. • That anything can keep spreading indefinitely, and remain intact, not only across the gargantuan distances involved but also over potentially millions of years for other species to encounter them. • That intelligent life wants to keep spreading or exploring indefinitely. As opposed to, say, creating VR universes of its own and attaining contentment within them. • That there are only a few "directions" into which species or machines can spread across the universe, for them to run into each other. • That there are no "stabilizing" forces – natural or adversarial – which counter rampant expansion.

WilliamEdward 8y ago

As others have pointed out there are 50 thousand assumptions being made here, but one of the biggest is why you assume technology can ever be efficient enough for this? The entire universe is limited to the periodic table. You would need to have a device made entirely out of material that has a half life greater than millions of years, and a battery that can last that long without sunlight. I'm not saying it's impossible because technology is often surprising, but that's a fundamental limitation that so far we know cannot be overcome. Edit: Even if the robot behaved in a self-sustaining manner, this further assumes a perfect, unobstructed trajectory and asteroids full of essential materials are on the route to earth.

snowwrestler 8y ago

> Even at very low speeds, a civilization with a 10 million year "head start" (which is nothing on the timescale of the universe) would be able to send autonomous robots across the galaxy. I see this sort of statement all the time, and we have no empirical evidence it is true. As this article says, even this simple "Starshot" concept is "a monumental engineering challenge that will require huge leaps in technology for spacecraft design, propulsion and communication." And all the challenges are fundamentally physical, involving issues of weight, strength, density, power density, thermodynamics, etc. Unless they make some near-magical breakthrough in physics, a civilization one million years older than our own would find it just as difficult as we will! And what if some galactic civilization has already done this? Are we likely to detect a spacecraft "just 3 to 12 feet across and weigh as little as a thimbleful of water" passing somewhere through our solar system at 20% C?

mihaifm 8y ago
It's usually the explorers who do the detection and contact, while the lesser civilization simply acknowledges their presence. I don't think physics is a roadblock for space exploration at this point. We just need to figure out asteroid mining and building in space, after that we can send robots driven by AI to other systems, at low speeds. Once they reach other systems they would refuel, build more robots and carry on. It's a massive engineering challange, but it's quite predictable within a few thousand years (if we don't destroy ourselves by then).