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Brilliant design: RCA student radically improves the UK plug
- jacquesm 16y agoBrilliant design, but ganging up unfused plugs like that spells 'fire'. It's like plugging in a cascade of extension cords. I don't like the mobile pieces either, they are: - structurally fragile - likely to break off and decrease safety - in the case of the contacts a source of contact resistance which causes energy to be lost as well as an increased fire risk - if they are 'wired' a spot where the wiring will break because of fatigue issues Good industrial design takes in to account the function and safety issues as well. Electrical plugs are a source of some amusement in Europe, in spite of being a 'union' we are not even capable of designing a plug that satisfies everybody and for some this has become symbolic of the dissent in the various states against EU conformity. Have a look here how crazy the situation is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets If we can't even design a common AC plug that everybody will actually adopt that's food for thought.
- jacobolus 16y agoSomething to point to every time some European starts lecturing about the metric system or A paper sizes. Overcoming existing standards is damn hard, and it’s not just laziness or stupidity which prevents systemic standard changes.
- ciupicri 16y agoExcept that the UK has to be a bit more "special" most of the time. For example it's not part of the Euro zone nor the Schengen area[2]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_zone#Members http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_zone#Members [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#EU_member_states_with_opt-outs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#EU_member_states_...
- Semiapies 16y agoPlease link us to the standard plug that every other European country uses. :)
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoNOt fair! Do you know they are "unfused", "fragile" or dangerous? You made that up! As for ganging plugs, this approach has an advantage over other (e.g. American" standards - there is the possibility of keying the "ganged" plugs by rating, so for instance only 10-amp plugs could be ganged to the 40-amp main, thus preventing fusing issues.
- jacquesm 16y agoThe American plugs are no contest, they're junk. Just optimized for cost with terrible degradation as they get older, the same goes for the wall socket. I've seen multiple blackened areas around wall sockets in relatively new houses in the US and Canada due to ridiculously high contact resistance. The fuse in these plugs - assuming there is one - is in series with the consumer, not in series with the pass-through to the next plug, so yes, by ganging them up you're bypassing the fuses. That's kind of logical too, otherwise you'd have to be matching the plugs in decreasing order of load (which in itself would not be a bad idea). Fragile because they have moving parts, anybody that has any experience with electrical stuff knows that as soon as there are moving parts involved in something as basic as a connector that you're looking at an increased failure rate. Dangerous because they allow the users a degree of freedom that has led to lots of trouble in the past, to the point that 'gangable' designs in plugs have been outlawed in lots of countries.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoNo contest, American plugs are under-designed. The fuses in these devices can do whatever the one in the wall does, how can we tell by looking how it works? As for moving parts, I wonder how that interlock in the wall-plate works. Also, seems like my two-year-old can stick a fork into the ground pin just as easily as any other. And current flows thru the ground, yes, that's why its called a circuit. Dangerous - yes, if not keyed. That's kind of a cool idea, if its not easily defeatable like the ground on 3-prong cords in the US- they actually sell adapters in every hardware store that simply ignore the ground!
- jacquesm 16y ago
- ErrantX 16y agobut ganging up unfused plugs like that spells 'fire' Nah, it'll be fine. Actually this sort of thinking is probably because of the "dangerous plugs" pictures we are always shown as children. A stuffed up socket just looks automatically dangerous to us. I guess you're coming from the perspective of overloading the socket. This is surprisingly hard to do - but you can do it equally well across multiple sockets (basically, if your fuse breaker is going to let it burn it doesn't care much where the devices are plugged in :)) so it is something of a misconception to consider a crowded socket particularly dangerous. People happily use an 8 gang extension cable without batting an eyelid. More importantly having fuses in the plugs is unlikely to help all that much, the crucial fuse is the one in your circuit breaker. The current will divide across the sockets (my circuit theory is rusty so I won't try any figures :)) and it is the socket taking the brunt. While you would likely eventually see a spike that trips one of the plugs I'm betting the socket catching fire is more likely. And, finally, I suspect these would be rated (well, if they weren't vapour-ware) for devices with internal fusing or low power draws. I'd also suspect that the plug "holder" would be fused. BTW it is somewhat moot anyway because I believe those red tabs are a fuse holder :)
- jacquesm 16y agoThe big difference between a single 8 gang extension and this system is that you're putting all those connections in series, whereas in an 8 gang extension they're in parallel. That's a lot of contact resistance, this socket already has twice as much contact resistance as a normal one (because of the twist in the contact section). If we're talking 'light' consumers, say below a 100W or so you might get away with it but if a 'heavy' consumer would be plugged in as the last element in a series of 'light' ones you'd be concentrating an awful lot of energy in to a small spot. But hey, what do I know about electricity ;) At 10 mOhm (new and very clean) per contact with 5 plugs 'ganged' up that's 5x4x10mOhm or .2 Ohm. With a 240V working voltage and a 2 KW consumer that would be 8.3 Amps so about 1.6 V drop, 8.3x1.6=13 Watts, which the copper wiring alone can probably remove without any heat building up. If the contacts wear and get older they could get to as much as .3 Ohm apiece. Now you're looking at 5x4x.3 Ohm, 6 Ohm, in total so that's a 49 V drop, almost 400 Watts to dissipate just in the contacts. That's a lot of heat. That's why some older wall sockets will get warm (or even hot) when you plug in a large consumer. And your circuit protection will not care even a little bit about all this, it's just another heater.
- swombat 16y agoThis thing comes up every 6-12 months on HN. Vaporware, from the looks of it. Wake me up when it actually gets implemented and becomes available for real.
- hellweaver666 16y agoAs I understand it, it's just a student project. It'll probably go commercial at some point, but not until the guy leaves uni.
- makmanalp 16y agoActually, the school will probably try to claim rights on it.
- DevX101 16y agoUnless I'm mistaken this community is about innovation. Making his prototype is a long way along the implementation process and beyond from 'pie in the sky' stage.
- SeanLuke 16y agoAny monkey can innovate. Watch while I innovate the following new word: gronkuiotis. What matters is not innovation but well-engineered ideas. That is, ideas which will work in reality rather than in gronkuiotis, I mean, design-world. Now I happen to think that this project has some merit, though the rotation of the two main plugs will never pass muster -- it'll break quickly and at any rate almost certainly will rapidly become a fire hazard internally after a few turns. But that's probably fixable. But what I think the GP was getting on about, and what also annoys me greatly as well, is that there are many "designers" (i.e. artists) who think that engineering is the easy part, and what really matters is "innovating". The mindset of "designers" goes like this. "Let me think of this cool version of a chair! Now I just need to find a lowly engineer to do the menial engineering part, I'm sure it's inconsequential." Design-first-engineer-second is how you wind up with poorly engineered "innovations" like these: http://www.strida.com/en/products/ http://www.strida.com/en/products/ The basic problem is that most artists have no training in making something which actually works. It's not sexy to get something to work. It's sexy to draw pretty pictures. When I was a little kid I used to draw spaceships where a lightbulb was focused through a long series of lenses until it became stronger and stronger and was blasted out the back, Star Wars Propulsion style. I was quite the innovator, and had some awesome spaceships with impressive lens sequences. That didn't mean my idea contributed to the global discourse.
- hackermom 16y agoThey should just switch their infrastructure to the "Euro"-plug as soon as they can, like the rest of Europe already uses since ages. Not only is the "Euro"-plug by far the most solid, durable and safest plug, but it will help the Brits and the rest of Europe to be in-sync with eachother on the consumer electronics compatiblity front. Now that the UK has already taken the step to 230V like the rest of Europe, they should complete the rest of the move.
- eru 16y agoIt doesn't really matter. Adapters are cheap. (And I recently moved from the continent to Europe.)
- com 16y agoWhat does this mean? "The continent" is normally - in English - a shortened form of "continental Europe". Are you saying that you moved from somewhere east of the Urals or perhaps Turkey (if you don't believe that that's culturally European, although the part west of the Bosphorus is indeed part of the continent). And adaptors are pretty pricy for things with no active parts.
- eru 16y agoSorry, I meant I moved from the continent to Britain. Just a typo.
- djhworld 16y agoSo you're suggesting changing every single plug socket in every house/business/office premises in the UK? Then changing every single plug on every appliance you own (or using a converter) Seems like a huge undertaking to me.
- RBerenguel 16y agoIt has happened in other countries and in other times. It may be called progress by some, even.
- latentflip 16y agoI saw this when it first did the rounds on Twitter a while agi, and I have wondered about it since; I'd love to get my hands on one. The FAQs on his site claims it will be released this year: http://www.madeinmind.co.uk/faq.php http://www.madeinmind.co.uk/faq.php - I sure hope so.
- arethuza 16y agoI'm surprised that Apple UK don't buy exclusive rights to that design.
- ez77 16y agoNo need. They'll probably take the main idea, polish it and then patent it.
- ars 16y agoTiny bit of history: The reason plugs in the UK are so big is that each one must be individually fused. And the reason for that is something called a "ring circuit". In a ring circuit you have, say, a 40 amp fuse at the mains/box. From this you send out two wires, each rated only for 20 amps, going in a circle around the house. You can now supply 40 amps worth of power using only cheaper 20 amp wires. (Since the current can flow over both wires at once.) But this means that the wires going to an individual appliance are far too small for the main breaker, so each appliance gets a fuse in the plug. Ring circuits have serious drawbacks, but they helped during a time when there was a copper shortage. And ever since then the UK has been stuck with huge plugs.
- nodata 16y agoInteresting. What other serious drawbacks do they have? Any other countries use them?
- junglefever 16y agoI think that Singapore use the same plug.
- prawn 16y agoHong Kong sometimes too.
- masklinn 16y ago> What other serious drawbacks do they have? They tend to rest on the plug's back, and hurt a lot when you step on them. > Any other countries use them? India and South Africa use the so-called Type D plug[0] (also called Type M in its 15A incarnation), which is similar but uses round plugs (type D is actually an older english standard). Some other south-east asian countries also use Type D. The english plug is called "Type G" and used in a number of former colonies and protectorates[1], especially in Africa and the Middle East. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type_D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type_G http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type...
- Hates_ 16y agoPrevious discussions: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782236 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782236
- samwillis 16y agoThat design has been around for a while now, I very much like it but I believe that they will find it very hard to have it CE marked. I work as a product designer in the UK and have been involved in the design of a device that plugs directly into a wall socket, the regulations on the design of the UK plug are very stringent and this probably doesn't pass. With that said though I think this is a very good design and would love it if the regulations were changed and this was achievable.
- points 16y agoHas anyone not seen this already? It was posted on Reddit a few years ago. It's been posted on HN twice already, it's gone around twitter. Are you all new to the internet?
- gxti 16y agoOr perhaps they are less devoted than you to the church of HN. I'm flagging it, but not because I've seen it before (I have) but because of the hyperbolic title and writeup.
- gamma_raj 16y agoBeautiful design.
- philwise 16y agoHere is an alternative for the Duct Tape Programmer: http://www.brightyellowcow.com/blog/A-thin-13A-Plug.html http://www.brightyellowcow.com/blog/A-thin-13A-Plug.html
- confuzatron 16y agoThat is quite dangerous, as it is unfused.
- ashitvora 16y agoAwesome.
- podperson 16y agoMy problem with this design is that it doesn't provide coverage for the pins making it less safe. A similar design which included the shield but tilted the pins could retain most of the safety characteristics of the standard design without being vulnerable to (say) kids sticking fingers near partially inserted pins.
- elai 16y agoI want the italian type L plugs, except it uses flat pins vs. rounded pins (rounded pins always seem to fall out at the slightest force, it's extremely frustrating) and have a plastic covering for part of the live wires like the british plugs do. Outlets would have 4 to 6 plugs standard instead of one or two. The Schuko plugs are huge monstrosities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type_L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#Type...
- RiderOfGiraffes 16y agoHere are previous submissions so people can catch up on earlier discussions: + http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=841068 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=841068 + http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927714 <- This one has some comments worth reading.
- gcb 16y agovery dandy but... the female plugs in the adapter are not to spec to female outlet plugs. so it can't be legally sold there. (me thinks. in Brazil you can't sell outlet stuff that are not up to government spec) no matter how well it fits or looks. Unless he managed to implement the shutter activated by the earth plug and minimum depths for the live contacts in that little box. Then i would be honestly impressed.
- regularfry 16y agothe female plugs in the adapter are not to spec to female outlet plugs. so it can't be legally sold there. (me thinks. in Brazil you can't sell outlet stuff that are not up to government spec) That's not a problem in the UK. You can sell non-standard-shape plugs and sockets as long as they're up to the safety spec in all other respects. I believe that also means that they have to be sufficiently different from the standard ones that it's impossible to attempt to fit a standard plug into a non-standard socket (or vice versa).
- tzs 16y agoMin-Kyu Choi impressed every passer by with his neat, apparently market-ready plug that folds down to the width of an Apple MacBook Air. Considering that a MacBook Air is 32.5 cm (12.74 inches) wide, I'm not impressed.
- masklinn 16y agoHave you ever held an english plug in your hands? These things are closer to a battle tank than an AC power plug. Forget about flimsy american crap, english plugs can be used as assault weapons.
- robin_reala 16y agoGrowing up with a younger brother I can testify to this last statement.