29 ms·

Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy

by anjc 8y ago

Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy weather events for much of the year...it's no paradise. You'll frequently see things happen which are downright illegal in the Western world. For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. It's sad that some introverted/vulnerable people seem to gravitate towards Japanese culture. If the Japanese themselves have a tough time in their own society then why do outsiders expect to fare any better.

glandium 8y ago
> For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they did actually serve foreigners that speak Japanese. Which is somehow understandable, although the form might not be appropriate. Speaking of form, it is worth noting that when combined with poor English, the signs can be huge fails in meaning. For example "Japanese only" can mean "Japanese people only" or "Japanese language only". I'm sure there are many ways people with good intentions can end up with badly worded signs. And obviously, a foreigner seeing a badly worded sign is unlikely to tell them the sign is badly worded, keeping the status quo in place. I've actually heard of instances of foreigners telling about signs, with the signs being replaced as a result.
- anjc 8y ago
  I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language. Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts of Tokyo in touristy areas. I'm a middle aged academic too, not exactly the type to ever cause trouble. Deny service in Europe in this manner and see what happens. I don't even care, personally. They can serve who they want. It just may be a shock to people who assume that the Japanese will be largely welcoming of outsiders.
  - glandium 8y ago
    Congratulations, you've found the goose that laid golden eggs. And now you say all geese lay golden eggs. BTW, I'm not sure this isn't actually illegal. But as always, it's not because it's illegal that aholes won't do it.
    - anjc 8y ago
      > Congratulations, you've found the goose that laid golden eggs. And now you say all geese lay golden eggs. I mean I saw these signs frequently. Although yes, on the whole, people are pleasant and accommodating. This 'discrimination' will not ruin your life. It's a mild inconvenience and personally I don't care about it. Essentially my point is that you're probably not going to move to Japan and integrate yourself into society. You'll always be an outsider, and you may sometimes be shunned in an explicit way, which is quite shocking. And I believe you're right that it's illegal to discriminate on this basis there.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  It happened to me twice (as a tourist, overall being seven weeks in Japan). My strong feeling was that the proprietor of those places were afraid that they won't be able to communicate appropriately and that they may lose face if they can't make me happy. I never felt discrimanted against, really. On the other hand I had fantastic experiences walking into places, where nobody spoke an English word, throwing a hearty Omakase! (essentially: you decide) at the chef. Smiling and an occasional Oishii! (delicious) delivered with a smile also go a long way. You have to be aware that they're really scared to lose face and that you could leave unhappy. A very big no!no! in Japanese culture. I had fantastic experiences, let alone extremely tasty meals with this approach. edit : spello
  - noobermin 8y ago
    I once said "oishii!" in a coffee shop and the guy looked at me like I was trying too hard.
hocuspocus 8y ago
While it's true that salaries are low on average, a tech worker relocating from overseas wouldn't (and shouldn't) settle for an average offer. Same goes for work culture.

by anjc 8y ago

glandium 8y ago

> For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they did actually serve foreigners that speak Japanese. Which is somehow understandable, although the form might not be appropriate. Speaking of form, it is worth noting that when combined with poor English, the signs can be huge fails in meaning. For example "Japanese only" can mean "Japanese people only" or "Japanese language only". I'm sure there are many ways people with good intentions can end up with badly worded signs. And obviously, a foreigner seeing a badly worded sign is unlikely to tell them the sign is badly worded, keeping the status quo in place. I've actually heard of instances of foreigners telling about signs, with the signs being replaced as a result.

anjc 8y ago
I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language. Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts of Tokyo in touristy areas. I'm a middle aged academic too, not exactly the type to ever cause trouble. Deny service in Europe in this manner and see what happens. I don't even care, personally. They can serve who they want. It just may be a shock to people who assume that the Japanese will be largely welcoming of outsiders.
- glandium 8y ago
  Congratulations, you've found the goose that laid golden eggs. And now you say all geese lay golden eggs. BTW, I'm not sure this isn't actually illegal. But as always, it's not because it's illegal that aholes won't do it.
  - anjc 8y ago
    > Congratulations, you've found the goose that laid golden eggs. And now you say all geese lay golden eggs. I mean I saw these signs frequently. Although yes, on the whole, people are pleasant and accommodating. This 'discrimination' will not ruin your life. It's a mild inconvenience and personally I don't care about it. Essentially my point is that you're probably not going to move to Japan and integrate yourself into society. You'll always be an outsider, and you may sometimes be shunned in an explicit way, which is quite shocking. And I believe you're right that it's illegal to discriminate on this basis there.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
It happened to me twice (as a tourist, overall being seven weeks in Japan). My strong feeling was that the proprietor of those places were afraid that they won't be able to communicate appropriately and that they may lose face if they can't make me happy. I never felt discrimanted against, really. On the other hand I had fantastic experiences walking into places, where nobody spoke an English word, throwing a hearty Omakase! (essentially: you decide) at the chef. Smiling and an occasional Oishii! (delicious) delivered with a smile also go a long way. You have to be aware that they're really scared to lose face and that you could leave unhappy. A very big no!no! in Japanese culture. I had fantastic experiences, let alone extremely tasty meals with this approach. edit : spello
- noobermin 8y ago
  I once said "oishii!" in a coffee shop and the guy looked at me like I was trying too hard.

hocuspocus 8y ago

While it's true that salaries are low on average, a tech worker relocating from overseas wouldn't (and shouldn't) settle for an average offer. Same goes for work culture.