5 ms·

To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikip

by dbjh 8y ago

To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikipedia article talks about do not want to fully integrate - they insist on their Korean nationality and demand rights of both Korean and Japanese nationals. At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. As anectodal evidence to counter your claim, in the Japanese company I work for (in Japan), my direct superior is Taiwanese, one colleague Korean and another Malay and they are all treated like any other.

lifthrasiir 8y ago
It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their descendants or all Koreans), Ainu peoples, Ryukyuan peoples and Burakumin. Sometimes they result in criminal or problematic acts; for example, Korean immigrants are a major force behind the notorious pachinko industry. Still such phenomena do not mask the underlying problem. > At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. They have managed to obtain a special status because they have been oppressed! You are swapping the cause and the effect. Also you can't use irritation among Japanese as a rationale or whatever because they are naturally biased---it's just that, they feel so and there might or might not be a good reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan
- dbjh 8y ago
  I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes from.
  - lifthrasiir 8y ago
    Koreans in Japan had been oppressed and are being discriminated today, and the special privileges cover both (with a focus on the former, of course). You can easily say that the oppression and discrimination is different but the border is not clear. Note that I do not fully agree to their claims; it is rather common that legitimate victims try to maximize their compensations and the Japanese government will have to trade off anyway. But I think you are too generous to Japan on this complicated issue, showing only one aspect of the problem.
  - Regardsyjc 8y ago
    “After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner." Japan-born Koreans live in limbo https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-live-in-limbo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-li...
    - laurieg 8y ago
      Another way to frame this would be she has chosen to "live in limbo". She could naturalise and it would not have been a problem. Japan makes the zainichi concession because it's got no other option. Force the people affected to become Japanese would cause an outcry. Repatriating them to a country they have never lived in would be little better. The zainichi status holders that I have met over the years in general identify more strongly with their non Japanese nationality and do not want to naturalise. If that means they cannot become a police officer or a government official it seems fairly reasonable to me.

by dbjh 8y ago

lifthrasiir 8y ago

It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their descendants or all Koreans), Ainu peoples, Ryukyuan peoples and Burakumin. Sometimes they result in criminal or problematic acts; for example, Korean immigrants are a major force behind the notorious pachinko industry. Still such phenomena do not mask the underlying problem. > At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. They have managed to obtain a special status because they have been oppressed! You are swapping the cause and the effect. Also you can't use irritation among Japanese as a rationale or whatever because they are naturally biased---it's just that, they feel so and there might or might not be a good reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan

dbjh 8y ago
I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes from.
- lifthrasiir 8y ago
  Koreans in Japan had been oppressed and are being discriminated today, and the special privileges cover both (with a focus on the former, of course). You can easily say that the oppression and discrimination is different but the border is not clear. Note that I do not fully agree to their claims; it is rather common that legitimate victims try to maximize their compensations and the Japanese government will have to trade off anyway. But I think you are too generous to Japan on this complicated issue, showing only one aspect of the problem.
- Regardsyjc 8y ago
  “After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner." Japan-born Koreans live in limbo https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-live-in-limbo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-li...
  - laurieg 8y ago
    Another way to frame this would be she has chosen to "live in limbo". She could naturalise and it would not have been a problem. Japan makes the zainichi concession because it's got no other option. Force the people affected to become Japanese would cause an outcry. Repatriating them to a country they have never lived in would be little better. The zainichi status holders that I have met over the years in general identify more strongly with their non Japanese nationality and do not want to naturalise. If that means they cannot become a police officer or a government official it seems fairly reasonable to me.