5 ms·

The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government.

The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014 the Prime Minister of Japan said there was no evidence that the Japanese government took "slaves". And the second point, which you don't touch upon, is if you look even vaguely Japanese at all, you are expected to follow all the social norms. If you don't, they give you a pass.

sofon 8y ago
"The plural of anecdote is not data." Then present some data other than a wikipedia article which doesn't appear to support your case.
- jimmywanger 8y ago
  The wikipedia article indicates that as recently as 2007, the Prime Minister of Japan did not believe that the Japanese government seized the comfort women by force[0]. When we riot over Confederate statues, and yet we're ok with their government officials visiting shrines which celebrate war criminals[1]? Of course the United States is not blameless. We gave amnesty to the leaders of Camp 731 in exchange for experimental knowledge and the Tuskegee experiments are of course unforgivable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_i... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issues_and_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issue...
  - sofon 8y ago
    You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of that, is there data that shows that racism in Japan is quantitatively worse than other countries?
    - jimmywanger 8y ago
      I don't know about quantitatively worse. But if you look here, a UN rep stated that Japanese racism "primarily affects three groups: national minorities, descendants of former Japanese colonies, and foreigners from other Asian countries"[0]. He also said that racism was "deep and profound." This was in 2005. We're (United States) still trying to get rid of racism, even after the civil rights movement of 1950. Racism doesn't go away after 12 years. Which goes back to my ORIGINAL POINT which is that if you're a non-Japanese Asian in Japan, you got nothing coming. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Comment_by_U.N._special_rapporteur_on_racism_and_xenophobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Comment...
      - sofon 8y ago
        ok, so... no data then, just a series of quotes and observations about individuals. I'd honestly be interested in learning about racism in Japan, and if it is different/worse than other countries. But all that's been presented is anecdotes.
        jimmywanger 8y ago
        I cited wikipedia and a UN observer. What else do you want as data? Survey data? Who would answer a survey asking if you were racist, specifically if you're racist towards certain ethnic groups? What are you realistically asking for that will change your mind?
        sofon 8y ago
        Yes, survey data. And to be clear, the world value survey has asked questions covering racism. In particular: "Would you accept someone of a different race as a neighbour?" and "How often do you see racist behaviour in your neighbourhood?" You could also look at mobility of foreign workers of as opposed to native workers of a similar background. Unfortunately the world value survey results don't really support your case. You'd want the racism broken down by ethnicity I guess if you believe that the Japanese are particularly racist against other Asians. The refugee figures help support the idea that Japan is more racist (Japan accept far fewer refugees than other countries), but as this is a political issue, rather than based on the reaction of individual Japanese people, it's harder to draw conclusions from this. But yes, I don't really find a comment by an individual, or unquantified data from wikipedia very compelling.
dbjh 8y ago
I already mentioned that Koreans in Japan have obtained a special status that is AFAIK better than any other nationality as a direct result of WW2. As an example of an attempt to rectify things what about this long list of official apologies that are somehow forgotten in this kind of "discussion"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statemen... And you are again being disingenuous with what you care to mention. From the list above: January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: "Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships". Are you perhaps trying to raise the bar? In 10 other official apologies the suffering of the comfort women is acknowledged. You will also see that the Japanese government didn't only spend words on this issue, but also allocated funds.
- mrpopo 8y ago
  From the very article you are citing : March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993.
  - dbjh 8y ago
    Your quote doesn't invalidate anything I wrote. My response proved jimmywanger's claim "no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government" to be false. Also note how he moved the goalposts. In his original post he talks about how Koreans are oppressed, while in the second post he changed it to have been oppressed in the past. I have no interest in discussing the definition of "slave". I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan.
    - jimmywanger 8y ago
      > I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan. Trying to read somebody's motives (who you have never met) is mostly incorrect. Japanese people in Japan are incredibly racist towards other Asian people. And the Japanese government is backpedaling and still visits a shrine with convicted war criminals celebrated as casualties.
freedrull 8y ago
Why the downvotes? From 2018: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/12/national/politics-diplomacy/abe-rejects-kangs-new-apology-call-comfort-women-issue/#.W350CJP7Tsk https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/12/national/politi...

sofon 8y ago

"The plural of anecdote is not data." Then present some data other than a wikipedia article which doesn't appear to support your case.

jimmywanger 8y ago
The wikipedia article indicates that as recently as 2007, the Prime Minister of Japan did not believe that the Japanese government seized the comfort women by force[0]. When we riot over Confederate statues, and yet we're ok with their government officials visiting shrines which celebrate war criminals[1]? Of course the United States is not blameless. We gave amnesty to the leaders of Camp 731 in exchange for experimental knowledge and the Tuskegee experiments are of course unforgivable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_i... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issues_and_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issue...
- sofon 8y ago
  You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of that, is there data that shows that racism in Japan is quantitatively worse than other countries?
  - jimmywanger 8y ago
    I don't know about quantitatively worse. But if you look here, a UN rep stated that Japanese racism "primarily affects three groups: national minorities, descendants of former Japanese colonies, and foreigners from other Asian countries"[0]. He also said that racism was "deep and profound." This was in 2005. We're (United States) still trying to get rid of racism, even after the civil rights movement of 1950. Racism doesn't go away after 12 years. Which goes back to my ORIGINAL POINT which is that if you're a non-Japanese Asian in Japan, you got nothing coming. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Comment_by_U.N._special_rapporteur_on_racism_and_xenophobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Comment...
    - sofon 8y ago
      ok, so... no data then, just a series of quotes and observations about individuals. I'd honestly be interested in learning about racism in Japan, and if it is different/worse than other countries. But all that's been presented is anecdotes.
      - jimmywanger 8y ago
        I cited wikipedia and a UN observer. What else do you want as data? Survey data? Who would answer a survey asking if you were racist, specifically if you're racist towards certain ethnic groups? What are you realistically asking for that will change your mind?
        sofon 8y ago
        Yes, survey data. And to be clear, the world value survey has asked questions covering racism. In particular: "Would you accept someone of a different race as a neighbour?" and "How often do you see racist behaviour in your neighbourhood?" You could also look at mobility of foreign workers of as opposed to native workers of a similar background. Unfortunately the world value survey results don't really support your case. You'd want the racism broken down by ethnicity I guess if you believe that the Japanese are particularly racist against other Asians. The refugee figures help support the idea that Japan is more racist (Japan accept far fewer refugees than other countries), but as this is a political issue, rather than based on the reaction of individual Japanese people, it's harder to draw conclusions from this. But yes, I don't really find a comment by an individual, or unquantified data from wikipedia very compelling.

dbjh 8y ago

I already mentioned that Koreans in Japan have obtained a special status that is AFAIK better than any other nationality as a direct result of WW2. As an example of an attempt to rectify things what about this long list of official apologies that are somehow forgotten in this kind of "discussion"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statemen... And you are again being disingenuous with what you care to mention. From the list above: January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: "Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships". Are you perhaps trying to raise the bar? In 10 other official apologies the suffering of the comfort women is acknowledged. You will also see that the Japanese government didn't only spend words on this issue, but also allocated funds.

mrpopo 8y ago
From the very article you are citing : March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993.
- dbjh 8y ago
  Your quote doesn't invalidate anything I wrote. My response proved jimmywanger's claim "no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government" to be false. Also note how he moved the goalposts. In his original post he talks about how Koreans are oppressed, while in the second post he changed it to have been oppressed in the past. I have no interest in discussing the definition of "slave". I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan.
  - jimmywanger 8y ago
    > I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan. Trying to read somebody's motives (who you have never met) is mostly incorrect. Japanese people in Japan are incredibly racist towards other Asian people. And the Japanese government is backpedaling and still visits a shrine with convicted war criminals celebrated as casualties.

freedrull 8y ago

Why the downvotes? From 2018: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/12/national/politics-diplomacy/abe-rejects-kangs-new-apology-call-comfort-women-issue/#.W350CJP7Tsk https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/12/national/politi...