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I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture

I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something for everyone. You'll be safe, and have all the amenities you would expect from a first world country.

soufron 8y ago
I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. Speaking japanese is a great plus of course - but it's quite easy to learn, reading and writing don't help much - except if you want to explore the vast trove of japanese culture. But the most important thing is to know that there is nearly zero interest in working in Japan if you're not the boss. Your career will be painful and difficult. You will suffer. It's a worst of two worlds situation.
- cgarrigue 8y ago
  Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. On the other hand, for sure living here is great if you can live with the caveats of the Japanese society.
  - carlmr 8y ago
    >However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. In software engineering I've had the same experience with anyone from a rote-learning culture. Software engineering is problem solving. If you can't solve problems, what can you do?
    - technofiend 8y ago
      Sounds like the perfect opportunity for a consultant! You're presumably an expert and have technical authority that is not anchored to the company hierarchy.
      - carlmr 8y ago
        That is a good way to see it.
    - noobermin 8y ago
      Hate to go off on a tangent, but there was that article about how NIH lead I think nextdoor to abandon cron and make their own alternative. I wish we could do both, be willing to learn and understand history and context but be willing to break the mold. We seem to be off in the reinvent everything mode because we all want to innovate, even when that innovation is unwarranted.
  - waterhouse 8y ago
    > this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. Curious. The stuff that I've read about Toyota says they have "continuous improvement" as a core principle[1]. Does that just not carry over into the way they do software, or is Toyota an anomaly among Japanese companies, or what? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. My grandmother spent a lot of time as an English teacher in Japan. The conclusion that she and my mother came to was that the Japanese will easily accept foreigners being foreign. However, after they've known you for a certain amount of time, the expectation will grow that by now you should know the right way to behave. Trying to keep your "foreign" status indefinitely is dangerous. (I personally have no experience with Japan.)
xaranke 8y ago
Can you comment on whether racism is still a thing in Japanese society?
- ericdykstra 8y ago
  I haven’t had any negative experiences based on my race, personally. I’ve never been denied service or anything like that, and I’ve been stopped by a police officer once in 3.5 years (no way to know if that was even racially motivated, either). There is some stereotyping, sure, but I don’t take it negatively. People get some interesting ideas about what is normal in America from movies :)
- Regardsyjc 8y ago
  I'm not Japanese but if Japanese culture is like Korean culture, there is subtle racism for foreigners but far from a crazy American level. More racism with darker shades of skin color. If this is an example of collective Asian cultures and racism- I'm Korean-American but I'm not considered Korean in Korean culture. If anyone watched Crazy Rich Asians, it's exactly like that. You might have a Chinese face and speak Chinese, but you will never be Chinese or one of us.
  - ousta 8y ago
    well if you don't know anything abut china but its language (which is already a start) then yeah you 're not chinese to someone who lived all his life in china. you are an american.
- laum 8y ago
  It’s still there at an institutional and cultural level - I think the most glaring example of this is the amount of landlords who either openly or discreetly (with a phone call to your realtor) will not rent property to foreigners.
  - ericdykstra 8y ago
    If foreigners are perceived as being higher risk, and they probably are, then I don't see any problem with landlords discriminating against them in general. It just means that the standard will be higher to offset whatever the risk is. There are some landlords who probably won't rent to foreigners at all, and that's fine, too. There are plenty of places available. If this kind of thing would bother you, I would strongly recommend not considering moving to Japan.
CitizenTekk 8y ago
I think it all goes to every other foreign countries. You must adapt to its language (unless it's English) and adapt to its culture. It's an SOP if you want to migrate or work into any other country, not just Japan. People like to live in Japan for many other reason as it is one of becoming one of the most livable city and you can almost leave your bike outside your house without getting stolen. And I almost forgot, there's pikachu and mario almost everywhere, how'd you like that?
krapp 8y ago
Everywhere else immigration and Japan are mentioned on HN, the consensus seems to be that Japan is doomed to lose its unique culture and societal cohesion due to immigration and the loss of its ethnic homogeneity... but apparently not when "we" are the immigrants. Odd, that.
RobertRoberts 8y ago
I really think any techie would appreciate the consitency of two of the three alphabets in Japanese. (Hiragana and Katakana) The very fact that both of these alphabets are the exact same phonetic pronunciations, but written slightly different to visually distinguish them, is the only complication. But that they are designed specifically to distinguish between Japanese and foreign words is just brilliant. Their Kanji script/written alphabet is a travesty left over from cave paintings and Chinese. But the spoken language is easy, easy to learn. The variations with polite (public or hierarchical relationships) vs common speaking, seem to mainly affect verb conjugations. But their sentence structures are reversed from ours, but many languages seem to be, but they have fewer words, and make a number of a assumptions about context that make speaking actually less complicated, but require more understanding. Also, they don't have any exceptions in pronunciation like English, which is huge. The extra effort saved on this alone can balance out the other complications. This is my limited experience with a few years training in the language, family members learning it and a few relatives that lived there for years. (one permanently now) Feel free to correct any errors I've thrown out. My point is that Japanese can be easier to learn than other languages, but for reasons that may not be obvious.
- Someguywhatever 8y ago
  Would it be possible to learn only Hirigana/Katakana and ignore Kanji altogether?
  - theandrewbailey 8y ago
    No. Even the word for Japanese in Japanese is 日本語 (Nihongo), all Kanji.
  - Grue3 8y ago
    No. You won't be able to read anything that isn't designed to be read by kindergarteners if you can't read kanji (at least primary-school level [1]). But even learning the most common ones is really useful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
  - 8y ago
innocentoldguy 8y ago
I used to live in Japan and I found the language fairly easy to learn (compared to other languages I have attempted, like French, Spanish, German, and Finnish). Japanese is consistent in its pronunciation and grammar, doesn’t have all the tenses English has, and uses tons of English words. As an engineer, Japanese made a lot of sense to me. The only real difficulty I had with it was reading Kanji.

soufron 8y ago

I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. Speaking japanese is a great plus of course - but it's quite easy to learn, reading and writing don't help much - except if you want to explore the vast trove of japanese culture. But the most important thing is to know that there is nearly zero interest in working in Japan if you're not the boss. Your career will be painful and difficult. You will suffer. It's a worst of two worlds situation.

cgarrigue 8y ago
Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. On the other hand, for sure living here is great if you can live with the caveats of the Japanese society.
- carlmr 8y ago
  >However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. In software engineering I've had the same experience with anyone from a rote-learning culture. Software engineering is problem solving. If you can't solve problems, what can you do?
  - technofiend 8y ago
    Sounds like the perfect opportunity for a consultant! You're presumably an expert and have technical authority that is not anchored to the company hierarchy.
    - carlmr 8y ago
      That is a good way to see it.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    Hate to go off on a tangent, but there was that article about how NIH lead I think nextdoor to abandon cron and make their own alternative. I wish we could do both, be willing to learn and understand history and context but be willing to break the mold. We seem to be off in the reinvent everything mode because we all want to innovate, even when that innovation is unwarranted.
- waterhouse 8y ago
  > this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. Curious. The stuff that I've read about Toyota says they have "continuous improvement" as a core principle[1]. Does that just not carry over into the way they do software, or is Toyota an anomaly among Japanese companies, or what? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy
thaumasiotes 8y ago
> not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. My grandmother spent a lot of time as an English teacher in Japan. The conclusion that she and my mother came to was that the Japanese will easily accept foreigners being foreign. However, after they've known you for a certain amount of time, the expectation will grow that by now you should know the right way to behave. Trying to keep your "foreign" status indefinitely is dangerous. (I personally have no experience with Japan.)

xaranke 8y ago

Can you comment on whether racism is still a thing in Japanese society?

ericdykstra 8y ago
I haven’t had any negative experiences based on my race, personally. I’ve never been denied service or anything like that, and I’ve been stopped by a police officer once in 3.5 years (no way to know if that was even racially motivated, either). There is some stereotyping, sure, but I don’t take it negatively. People get some interesting ideas about what is normal in America from movies :)
Regardsyjc 8y ago
I'm not Japanese but if Japanese culture is like Korean culture, there is subtle racism for foreigners but far from a crazy American level. More racism with darker shades of skin color. If this is an example of collective Asian cultures and racism- I'm Korean-American but I'm not considered Korean in Korean culture. If anyone watched Crazy Rich Asians, it's exactly like that. You might have a Chinese face and speak Chinese, but you will never be Chinese or one of us.
- ousta 8y ago
  well if you don't know anything abut china but its language (which is already a start) then yeah you 're not chinese to someone who lived all his life in china. you are an american.
laum 8y ago
It’s still there at an institutional and cultural level - I think the most glaring example of this is the amount of landlords who either openly or discreetly (with a phone call to your realtor) will not rent property to foreigners.
- ericdykstra 8y ago
  If foreigners are perceived as being higher risk, and they probably are, then I don't see any problem with landlords discriminating against them in general. It just means that the standard will be higher to offset whatever the risk is. There are some landlords who probably won't rent to foreigners at all, and that's fine, too. There are plenty of places available. If this kind of thing would bother you, I would strongly recommend not considering moving to Japan.

CitizenTekk 8y ago

I think it all goes to every other foreign countries. You must adapt to its language (unless it's English) and adapt to its culture. It's an SOP if you want to migrate or work into any other country, not just Japan. People like to live in Japan for many other reason as it is one of becoming one of the most livable city and you can almost leave your bike outside your house without getting stolen. And I almost forgot, there's pikachu and mario almost everywhere, how'd you like that?

krapp 8y ago

Everywhere else immigration and Japan are mentioned on HN, the consensus seems to be that Japan is doomed to lose its unique culture and societal cohesion due to immigration and the loss of its ethnic homogeneity... but apparently not when "we" are the immigrants. Odd, that.

RobertRoberts 8y ago

I really think any techie would appreciate the consitency of two of the three alphabets in Japanese. (Hiragana and Katakana) The very fact that both of these alphabets are the exact same phonetic pronunciations, but written slightly different to visually distinguish them, is the only complication. But that they are designed specifically to distinguish between Japanese and foreign words is just brilliant. Their Kanji script/written alphabet is a travesty left over from cave paintings and Chinese. But the spoken language is easy, easy to learn. The variations with polite (public or hierarchical relationships) vs common speaking, seem to mainly affect verb conjugations. But their sentence structures are reversed from ours, but many languages seem to be, but they have fewer words, and make a number of a assumptions about context that make speaking actually less complicated, but require more understanding. Also, they don't have any exceptions in pronunciation like English, which is huge. The extra effort saved on this alone can balance out the other complications. This is my limited experience with a few years training in the language, family members learning it and a few relatives that lived there for years. (one permanently now) Feel free to correct any errors I've thrown out. My point is that Japanese can be easier to learn than other languages, but for reasons that may not be obvious.

Someguywhatever 8y ago
Would it be possible to learn only Hirigana/Katakana and ignore Kanji altogether?
- theandrewbailey 8y ago
  No. Even the word for Japanese in Japanese is 日本語 (Nihongo), all Kanji.
- Grue3 8y ago
  No. You won't be able to read anything that isn't designed to be read by kindergarteners if you can't read kanji (at least primary-school level [1]). But even learning the most common ones is really useful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
- 8y ago

innocentoldguy 8y ago

I used to live in Japan and I found the language fairly easy to learn (compared to other languages I have attempted, like French, Spanish, German, and Finnish). Japanese is consistent in its pronunciation and grammar, doesn’t have all the tenses English has, and uses tons of English words. As an engineer, Japanese made a lot of sense to me. The only real difficulty I had with it was reading Kanji.