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Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals. Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do h

Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals. Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Your moral preference seems to be "avoid causing pain for sentient beings as much as possible." My preference is for the thriving of a wide variety of species with different evolutionary strategies. You, presumably, also avoid pain as a rule, but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause (ie: donating blood during a natural disaster). Ideally, farm animals live a safe life without unnecessary pain, are given reproductive opportunity, and are slaughtered painlessly. The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. > How did they choose this path? We are breeding these animals into existence and there is no natural reproduction. Cows for example are forcibly impregnated on what is sometimes called rape racks - you can find these videos on youtube. There is nothing natural or evolutionary about this. The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate, the path of becoming dependent on humans for their species survival. It's natural because humans are part of nature, and it's evolutionary because the evolutionary strategy of submission was outstandingly successful.

uxcolumbo 8y ago
Thanks again for chiming in - I'm always looking for views and evidence that shows whether my thinking is flawed. So here it goes ;) And to clarify all my arguments are against the large scale meat industry - where most of the meat comes from. I'm not talking about meat from animals you personally hunt or personally raised and killed - or meat coming from farms where the farmers truly try to give the animals a good life. > Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Wild boars are in their natural state, i.e. free in the wild. Most enslaved pigs lead a miserable life and are confined to very small places, i.e. not free. Do we need aphids for our survival? If not, why enslave them? We can't compare ourselves to cheetahs, who need meat to survive. Humans don't. > Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals That's not what I'm doing. I enjoyed meat dishes, but after doing extensive research of where the meat comes from that I buy in shops I stopped consuming meat. I'm not putting animals and humans on the same pedestal, if that is what you mean. > [...] but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause What higher cause are animals 'donating' their flesh to? In our society we don't need meat to survive anymore - it's been proven that we can get all the nutrients we need from plants and other non-animal food sources. So the only higher cause I can think of - why we continue to make these animals endure pain - is because we derive pleasure from it. So it becomes an ethical question - does our need for pleasure justify enslaving and oppressing these beings and creating destruction on so many other levels? > The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. Factory farms are the reality. Those happy ethical farms are rare in comparison and we can't feed the world with this - it's not scalable - especially since most people want and can only afford cheap meat. Interesting to hear how we can have large scale and pain free factory farms? But I think the question should be, is animal meat the best way to feed the world? > The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate. I don't understand how this works - do you have any links to some research that show that this is the case? It was easy for us to 'capture and domesticate' other humans - but we gave up on that practice, because we as a society agreed it was wrong. Look - I get it. It's not easy to give up meat and we tell ourselves that animals don't feel pain, that we need it to survive, that it's natural etc. We constantly evolve our moral framework - we gave up barbaric practices that once were the norm. In the future the way we produce our meat now will be seen as barbaric and immoral. Yes there will still be some people who eat meat - those that hunt and raise and kill it themselves and meat will be available to those that just want to continue to derive pleasure from it, but it will be very expensive. Edit: typos
- ericdykstra 8y ago
  I think we’ve just reached a point where we understand each other’s arguments, but have different moral preferences. I view things more on a large, long term scale, the survival of a large variety of species with diverse evolutionary strategies, rather than the suffering of individual animals. I think the relationship humans have with farm animals is beautiful and unique in the animal kingdom. I also find it a bit presumptuous that you think you know what will be considered immoral in the future. Thanks for the conversation! I wasn’t conceived by your arguments to change my moral preferences. I’ve also personally found myself in the best health when I’m eating an almost entirely carnivorous diet including a wide variety of organ meats.
  - uxcolumbo 8y ago
    To be honest I don't fully understand your argument. You seem to think a species that is being opressed by us, kept in factory farms and killed for our sensory pleasure - that this is a beautiful relationship? Maybe I'm being trolled? If not - I don't think you would say the same after watching Earthlings https://vimeo.com/209647801 https://vimeo.com/209647801 or after reading Eating Animals [2]. >I also find it a bit presumptuous that you think you know what will be considered immoral in the future. It's already considered immoral today by leading moral philosophers and other great thinkers, such as Peter Singer, Richard Dawkins[0], Einstein, Carl Sagan, Prof Brian Greene and many more. All I'm saying is that I think the majority of people in the future will adopt this view. Star Trek certainly protrayed this view [1]. Anyway, I'm not here to convince you - I can't. Only you can convince yourself. All I can do is present you with research and other information and encourage you to do your own research on the realities of the large scale meat industry. But I can fully understand that it's just easier not do that and just continue to tell oneself that we humans have a beautiful relationship with animals that we opress and exploit. Change is hard... but 'refactoring' oneself is rewarding ;) Anyway, thanks for making the effort to reply and for having a dialog. [0] Vegan lifestyle is morally superior - Richard Dawkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks [1] Star Trek - 'We no longer enslave animals for food purposes' https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s [2] https://smile.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-Foer/dp/0316069884/ https://smile.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-Foer... or wait for the documentary to be released hat is being produced by Natalie Portman.

uxcolumbo 8y ago

Thanks again for chiming in - I'm always looking for views and evidence that shows whether my thinking is flawed. So here it goes ;) And to clarify all my arguments are against the large scale meat industry - where most of the meat comes from. I'm not talking about meat from animals you personally hunt or personally raised and killed - or meat coming from farms where the farmers truly try to give the animals a good life. > Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Wild boars are in their natural state, i.e. free in the wild. Most enslaved pigs lead a miserable life and are confined to very small places, i.e. not free. Do we need aphids for our survival? If not, why enslave them? We can't compare ourselves to cheetahs, who need meat to survive. Humans don't. > Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals That's not what I'm doing. I enjoyed meat dishes, but after doing extensive research of where the meat comes from that I buy in shops I stopped consuming meat. I'm not putting animals and humans on the same pedestal, if that is what you mean. > [...] but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause What higher cause are animals 'donating' their flesh to? In our society we don't need meat to survive anymore - it's been proven that we can get all the nutrients we need from plants and other non-animal food sources. So the only higher cause I can think of - why we continue to make these animals endure pain - is because we derive pleasure from it. So it becomes an ethical question - does our need for pleasure justify enslaving and oppressing these beings and creating destruction on so many other levels? > The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. Factory farms are the reality. Those happy ethical farms are rare in comparison and we can't feed the world with this - it's not scalable - especially since most people want and can only afford cheap meat. Interesting to hear how we can have large scale and pain free factory farms? But I think the question should be, is animal meat the best way to feed the world? > The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate. I don't understand how this works - do you have any links to some research that show that this is the case? It was easy for us to 'capture and domesticate' other humans - but we gave up on that practice, because we as a society agreed it was wrong. Look - I get it. It's not easy to give up meat and we tell ourselves that animals don't feel pain, that we need it to survive, that it's natural etc. We constantly evolve our moral framework - we gave up barbaric practices that once were the norm. In the future the way we produce our meat now will be seen as barbaric and immoral. Yes there will still be some people who eat meat - those that hunt and raise and kill it themselves and meat will be available to those that just want to continue to derive pleasure from it, but it will be very expensive. Edit: typos

ericdykstra 8y ago
I think we’ve just reached a point where we understand each other’s arguments, but have different moral preferences. I view things more on a large, long term scale, the survival of a large variety of species with diverse evolutionary strategies, rather than the suffering of individual animals. I think the relationship humans have with farm animals is beautiful and unique in the animal kingdom. I also find it a bit presumptuous that you think you know what will be considered immoral in the future. Thanks for the conversation! I wasn’t conceived by your arguments to change my moral preferences. I’ve also personally found myself in the best health when I’m eating an almost entirely carnivorous diet including a wide variety of organ meats.
- uxcolumbo 8y ago
  To be honest I don't fully understand your argument. You seem to think a species that is being opressed by us, kept in factory farms and killed for our sensory pleasure - that this is a beautiful relationship? Maybe I'm being trolled? If not - I don't think you would say the same after watching Earthlings https://vimeo.com/209647801 https://vimeo.com/209647801 or after reading Eating Animals [2]. >I also find it a bit presumptuous that you think you know what will be considered immoral in the future. It's already considered immoral today by leading moral philosophers and other great thinkers, such as Peter Singer, Richard Dawkins[0], Einstein, Carl Sagan, Prof Brian Greene and many more. All I'm saying is that I think the majority of people in the future will adopt this view. Star Trek certainly protrayed this view [1]. Anyway, I'm not here to convince you - I can't. Only you can convince yourself. All I can do is present you with research and other information and encourage you to do your own research on the realities of the large scale meat industry. But I can fully understand that it's just easier not do that and just continue to tell oneself that we humans have a beautiful relationship with animals that we opress and exploit. Change is hard... but 'refactoring' oneself is rewarding ;) Anyway, thanks for making the effort to reply and for having a dialog. [0] Vegan lifestyle is morally superior - Richard Dawkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks [1] Star Trek - 'We no longer enslave animals for food purposes' https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s [2] https://smile.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-Foer/dp/0316069884/ https://smile.amazon.com/Eating-Animals-Jonathan-Safran-Foer... or wait for the documentary to be released hat is being produced by Natalie Portman.