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I'm curious how this is possible considering a certified Labor Condition Application is a requirement of, and must be submitted with, an H-1B petition. An emplo

I'm curious how this is possible considering a certified Labor Condition Application is a requirement of, and must be submitted with, an H-1B petition. An employer essentially attests to various posting requirements, and that the wage (ranges) at least matches the average for the same job title and seniority in a specific area, among other things. The wages listed in the LCA have to be backed by wage data from for instance http://www.flcdatacenter.com http://www.flcdatacenter.com. Seems like the company would have to either misrepresent the job requirements/responsibilities/wage level (seniority).. Or perhaps they'd fake a survey of local wages rather than using the "official" statistics? Otherwise I don't think the Department of Labor would/should certify an LCA with a wage way below market for the position. If they do, though, perhaps that's where the issue can and should be fixed? In practice this also means that employers need to file an amended H-1B petition with a newly certified LCA when an H-1B employee moves to a new area code. For instance, if you move a H-1B software engineer from Denver to San Francisco you'll likely have to pay the employee more. The article does point out that the issue was discovered by the Labor Department (rather than for instance the USCIS, who's responsible for processing the H-1B petition itself), so perhaps that indicates a failure to comply with LCA requirements?

dmode 8y ago
Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe. Here's the data https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Software+Engineer&city=SAN+JOSE&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Soft... Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. This is before bonus and RSU as DOL doesn't accept those as salary. So basically median pay is around $150K
- runesoerensen 8y ago
  > Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940&code=15-1132&year=19&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually say anything about how much Cisco's paying. Those are just the wages Cisco has submitted in LCAs, but I don't think there's any way to verify that an LCA is connected to and used for an approved H-1B petition and actual employment of a foreign worker. > Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe Not sure about HN reader bias (*see edit below), but in this case the Labor Department clearly found some wrongdoing on Cisco's part. Would be interesting to know what that is? Perhaps Cisco is filing all these LCAs to signal that's they're employing workers in all wage levels, but only use the certified LCAs with the lower wages when submitting H-1B petitions? Edit: OK, I'll admit that I do actually know about HN bias a few years back. That was abundantly clear from the shitshow that was the HN discussion about pg's "Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572
  - dmode 8y ago
    You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants, but are still very low paying. I bet the median wage of HR role in San Jose will be much lower
    - runesoerensen 8y ago
      > You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I agree that would be a stretch especially because the yearly H-1B visa cap is 65,000 across all industries. In any case, even if wages would be a bit higher without foreign labor, Cisco would probably only be responsible for paying at least the market wage for a position at the time the H-1B petition was filed. > I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants Just a small nit (because I'm reminded of this every time I enter the US): H-1B is a non-immigrant visa type for temporary workers ;)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

dmode 8y ago

Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe. Here's the data https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Software+Engineer&city=SAN+JOSE&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Soft... Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. This is before bonus and RSU as DOL doesn't accept those as salary. So basically median pay is around $150K

runesoerensen 8y ago
> Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940&code=15-1132&year=19&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually say anything about how much Cisco's paying. Those are just the wages Cisco has submitted in LCAs, but I don't think there's any way to verify that an LCA is connected to and used for an approved H-1B petition and actual employment of a foreign worker. > Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe Not sure about HN reader bias (*see edit below), but in this case the Labor Department clearly found some wrongdoing on Cisco's part. Would be interesting to know what that is? Perhaps Cisco is filing all these LCAs to signal that's they're employing workers in all wage levels, but only use the certified LCAs with the lower wages when submitting H-1B petitions? Edit: OK, I'll admit that I do actually know about HN bias a few years back. That was abundantly clear from the shitshow that was the HN discussion about pg's "Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572
- dmode 8y ago
  You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants, but are still very low paying. I bet the median wage of HR role in San Jose will be much lower
  - runesoerensen 8y ago
    > You could potentially argue that if Cisco and others didn't hire H1 workers, maybe the median wage in San Jose would be $200k. But that sounds like a little bit of a stretch. I agree that would be a stretch especially because the yearly H-1B visa cap is 65,000 across all industries. In any case, even if wages would be a bit higher without foreign labor, Cisco would probably only be responsible for paying at least the market wage for a position at the time the H-1B petition was filed. > I also think about roles like HR and Marketing that do not have much competition from immigrants Just a small nit (because I'm reminded of this every time I enter the US): H-1B is a non-immigrant visa type for temporary workers ;)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]