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I don’t have any moral problem with the relationship humans have with farm animals. It’s a symbiotic relationship in which the animal gets shelter, regular food

I don’t have any moral problem with the relationship humans have with farm animals. It’s a symbiotic relationship in which the animal gets shelter, regular food, and protection from predators as well as guaranteed reproductive success (at the species level, if not the individial) in exchange for its meat at the end of the process. Cows and chickens are the most successful mammals and birds on earth. I don’t try to project human emotions on to animals; there is no way evidence animals have any objection to what you call “oppression” or that they object to what you call “pain and suffering.” Quite the opposite, I would say this is the evolutionary path they chose. To your other point, the top 10 dishes I’ve ever had in my life were animals, and pan-frying a nice steak or pork loin along with eggs is a combination full of nutrition that I have never grown tired of.

uxcolumbo 8y ago
Thanks for sharing your view. I'm interested in what led to this conclusion - maybe you grew up around farm animals that were able to have a happy existence most of their life and the farmers did everything to create this 'sheltered' environment for them and only at the end the animal had to suffer (killed). However, I'm not sure you looked into how the majority of the meat we consume is being produced. If not, please review the videos below [0]. I'm curious to find out your thoughts on that - how that couldn't be described as oppressing and enslaving other species. Alex Hershaft - Holocaust survivor - certainly thinks so and draws comparisons to concentration camps and founded 'Farm' after escaped Nazi Germany. > there is no way evidence animals have any objection to what you call “oppression” or that they object to what you call “pain and suffering.” Do you have pets - a dog or a cat? If so, try to cut them with a knife and let me know what how they react. Anyway, no need to carry out this experiment - there is enough evidence that animals actively try to avoid pain. Why else are they screaming when they experience pain? Why else are animals being used in pain research? Maybe you think a pig can't be compared to a dog or cat. Pigs intelligence level has been compared to a young human child and piglets have passed the mirror test. Even fish feel pain [1] >Quite the opposite, I would say this is the evolutionary path they chose. How did they choose this path? We are breeding these animals into existence and there is no natural reproduction. Cows for example are forcibly impregnated on what is sometimes called rape racks - you can find these videos on youtube. There is nothing natural or evolutionary about this. Anyway, let me know after reviewing all this information and after doing your own research - whether you still think it's OK for us humans to continue and support the large scale meat industry. Whether you think it's OK to inflict pain on sentient beings that can experience pain - just so we can derive pleasure from them by consuming their flesh. [0] Reality of large scale meat production Meet your Meat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RX88IGJ35g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RX88IGJ35g Earthlings https://vimeo.com/209647801 https://vimeo.com/209647801 [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain...
- ericdykstra 8y ago
  Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals. Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Your moral preference seems to be "avoid causing pain for sentient beings as much as possible." My preference is for the thriving of a wide variety of species with different evolutionary strategies. You, presumably, also avoid pain as a rule, but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause (ie: donating blood during a natural disaster). Ideally, farm animals live a safe life without unnecessary pain, are given reproductive opportunity, and are slaughtered painlessly. The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. > How did they choose this path? We are breeding these animals into existence and there is no natural reproduction. Cows for example are forcibly impregnated on what is sometimes called rape racks - you can find these videos on youtube. There is nothing natural or evolutionary about this. The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate, the path of becoming dependent on humans for their species survival. It's natural because humans are part of nature, and it's evolutionary because the evolutionary strategy of submission was outstandingly successful.
  - uxcolumbo 8y ago
    Thanks again for chiming in - I'm always looking for views and evidence that shows whether my thinking is flawed. So here it goes ;) And to clarify all my arguments are against the large scale meat industry - where most of the meat comes from. I'm not talking about meat from animals you personally hunt or personally raised and killed - or meat coming from farms where the farmers truly try to give the animals a good life. > Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Wild boars are in their natural state, i.e. free in the wild. Most enslaved pigs lead a miserable life and are confined to very small places, i.e. not free. Do we need aphids for our survival? If not, why enslave them? We can't compare ourselves to cheetahs, who need meat to survive. Humans don't. > Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals That's not what I'm doing. I enjoyed meat dishes, but after doing extensive research of where the meat comes from that I buy in shops I stopped consuming meat. I'm not putting animals and humans on the same pedestal, if that is what you mean. > [...] but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause What higher cause are animals 'donating' their flesh to? In our society we don't need meat to survive anymore - it's been proven that we can get all the nutrients we need from plants and other non-animal food sources. So the only higher cause I can think of - why we continue to make these animals endure pain - is because we derive pleasure from it. So it becomes an ethical question - does our need for pleasure justify enslaving and oppressing these beings and creating destruction on so many other levels? > The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. Factory farms are the reality. Those happy ethical farms are rare in comparison and we can't feed the world with this - it's not scalable - especially since most people want and can only afford cheap meat. Interesting to hear how we can have large scale and pain free factory farms? But I think the question should be, is animal meat the best way to feed the world? > The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate. I don't understand how this works - do you have any links to some research that show that this is the case? It was easy for us to 'capture and domesticate' other humans - but we gave up on that practice, because we as a society agreed it was wrong. Look - I get it. It's not easy to give up meat and we tell ourselves that animals don't feel pain, that we need it to survive, that it's natural etc. We constantly evolve our moral framework - we gave up barbaric practices that once were the norm. In the future the way we produce our meat now will be seen as barbaric and immoral. Yes there will still be some people who eat meat - those that hunt and raise and kill it themselves and meat will be available to those that just want to continue to derive pleasure from it, but it will be very expensive. Edit: typos

uxcolumbo 8y ago

Thanks for sharing your view. I'm interested in what led to this conclusion - maybe you grew up around farm animals that were able to have a happy existence most of their life and the farmers did everything to create this 'sheltered' environment for them and only at the end the animal had to suffer (killed). However, I'm not sure you looked into how the majority of the meat we consume is being produced. If not, please review the videos below [0]. I'm curious to find out your thoughts on that - how that couldn't be described as oppressing and enslaving other species. Alex Hershaft - Holocaust survivor - certainly thinks so and draws comparisons to concentration camps and founded 'Farm' after escaped Nazi Germany. > there is no way evidence animals have any objection to what you call “oppression” or that they object to what you call “pain and suffering.” Do you have pets - a dog or a cat? If so, try to cut them with a knife and let me know what how they react. Anyway, no need to carry out this experiment - there is enough evidence that animals actively try to avoid pain. Why else are they screaming when they experience pain? Why else are animals being used in pain research? Maybe you think a pig can't be compared to a dog or cat. Pigs intelligence level has been compared to a young human child and piglets have passed the mirror test. Even fish feel pain [1] >Quite the opposite, I would say this is the evolutionary path they chose. How did they choose this path? We are breeding these animals into existence and there is no natural reproduction. Cows for example are forcibly impregnated on what is sometimes called rape racks - you can find these videos on youtube. There is nothing natural or evolutionary about this. Anyway, let me know after reviewing all this information and after doing your own research - whether you still think it's OK for us humans to continue and support the large scale meat industry. Whether you think it's OK to inflict pain on sentient beings that can experience pain - just so we can derive pleasure from them by consuming their flesh. [0] Reality of large scale meat production Meet your Meat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RX88IGJ35g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RX88IGJ35g Earthlings https://vimeo.com/209647801 https://vimeo.com/209647801 [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain...

ericdykstra 8y ago
Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals. Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Your moral preference seems to be "avoid causing pain for sentient beings as much as possible." My preference is for the thriving of a wide variety of species with different evolutionary strategies. You, presumably, also avoid pain as a rule, but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause (ie: donating blood during a natural disaster). Ideally, farm animals live a safe life without unnecessary pain, are given reproductive opportunity, and are slaughtered painlessly. The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. > How did they choose this path? We are breeding these animals into existence and there is no natural reproduction. Cows for example are forcibly impregnated on what is sometimes called rape racks - you can find these videos on youtube. There is nothing natural or evolutionary about this. The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate, the path of becoming dependent on humans for their species survival. It's natural because humans are part of nature, and it's evolutionary because the evolutionary strategy of submission was outstandingly successful.
- uxcolumbo 8y ago
  Thanks again for chiming in - I'm always looking for views and evidence that shows whether my thinking is flawed. So here it goes ;) And to clarify all my arguments are against the large scale meat industry - where most of the meat comes from. I'm not talking about meat from animals you personally hunt or personally raised and killed - or meat coming from farms where the farmers truly try to give the animals a good life. > Are farm pigs less happy than wild boars? Are you against ant enslavement of aphids? Do humans oppress chicken more than cheetahs oppress antelope? Wild boars are in their natural state, i.e. free in the wild. Most enslaved pigs lead a miserable life and are confined to very small places, i.e. not free. Do we need aphids for our survival? If not, why enslave them? We can't compare ourselves to cheetahs, who need meat to survive. Humans don't. > Again you're using human values and trying to project them on animals That's not what I'm doing. I enjoyed meat dishes, but after doing extensive research of where the meat comes from that I buy in shops I stopped consuming meat. I'm not putting animals and humans on the same pedestal, if that is what you mean. > [...] but there are cases where you would endure pain for a higher cause What higher cause are animals 'donating' their flesh to? In our society we don't need meat to survive anymore - it's been proven that we can get all the nutrients we need from plants and other non-animal food sources. So the only higher cause I can think of - why we continue to make these animals endure pain - is because we derive pleasure from it. So it becomes an ethical question - does our need for pleasure justify enslaving and oppressing these beings and creating destruction on so many other levels? > The fact that current factory farms aren't ideal isn't a reason to give up on these animals completely. Factory farms are the reality. Those happy ethical farms are rare in comparison and we can't feed the world with this - it's not scalable - especially since most people want and can only afford cheap meat. Interesting to hear how we can have large scale and pain free factory farms? But I think the question should be, is animal meat the best way to feed the world? > The ancestors of current meat cows evolutionary chose, by being the easiest to capture and domesticate. I don't understand how this works - do you have any links to some research that show that this is the case? It was easy for us to 'capture and domesticate' other humans - but we gave up on that practice, because we as a society agreed it was wrong. Look - I get it. It's not easy to give up meat and we tell ourselves that animals don't feel pain, that we need it to survive, that it's natural etc. We constantly evolve our moral framework - we gave up barbaric practices that once were the norm. In the future the way we produce our meat now will be seen as barbaric and immoral. Yes there will still be some people who eat meat - those that hunt and raise and kill it themselves and meat will be available to those that just want to continue to derive pleasure from it, but it will be very expensive. Edit: typos