5 ms·

Is the OP wrong? Is the point irrelevant to the discussion? In what way is the observation of an admittedly uncomfortable fact "ideological rhetoric"?

by _iyig 8y ago

dang 8y ago
People apply the word 'fact' loosely when it comes to topics they feel strongly about. The point is contentious and disputable in a bunch of ways. That's not necessarily bad, but it is when combined with a declamatory style. Just to be clear though: I'm not making a point about China. I'm making a point about how terrible Hacker News threads become when people allow themselves to post this way. This problem is getting worse as nationalistic feelings are heating up all over. If we're going to keep HN alive as a place for thoughtful discussion, we need users to control their rhetorical impulses and consciously respect opposing points of view. HN is a large for a single internet community (5M readers a month), highly international, and replete with opposing points of view. That ought to be a good thing if we don't tear ourselves apart with them.
- angersock 8y ago
  You're doing a lot of damage control on China stuff since that partnership thing was announced.
  - dang 8y ago
    That's quite an insinuation. Fortunately I have a long history of posts to HN, and anyone bored enough to search through them will easily see that it's not true. To me the weird thing is running across a smear like this at all; it's surreal when someone is sure they know what you're thinking. YC doesn't cross my mind while posting these. What has changed on HN over the last year or two is an uptick in nationalistic flamewar. That's happening because of larger social conditions we're all familiar with, but it has never been welcome on HN, and won't be as long as I'm moderating. That, btw, has nothing to do with which countries people are flaming about. It has to do with the purpose of this site—intellectual curiosity—being incompatible with tribalism. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - seibelj 8y ago
      I have personal and philosophical reasons for being anti socialist and anti communist. I have family that has been killed because of people supporting government actions, like China in the linked article, where they imprison and murder innocent people. I will try to be less inflammatory in the future, but I believe in western ideals. I think watering down criticism of authoritian regimes is a bit rich coming from a website that believes in the “hacker” ethos and “news” meaning a free press. I will make my opinions be more developed, but the underlying themes will not change.
      - dang 8y ago
        I respect your story, as well as those of the many other people on this site whose families have been through unspeakable trauma. Nobody's asking you to "water down" criticism. On the contrary, we're asking people to make more informative comments, instead of just posting empty rhetoric. Generic ideological comments and denunciations of entire countries are examples of empty, fiery rhetoric that we don't want on HN. Why? Because their information content is low, they provoke others into posting worse, and they lead to extremely predictable discussion. The main thing a site dedicated to intellectual curiosity needs to do is not be predictable, so HN is a bad place to fight the same fights over and over. In case it helps, I've been asking people for years on this site not to bash each other's countries, and the countries that have come up would make a long list. There's no national bias in it.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - angersock 8y ago
      > It has to do with the purpose of this site—intellectual curiosity—being incompatible with tribalism. "You might not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you." More seriously, though, the highbrow dismissal of very real problems as tribalism on the same site that frequently has slapfights over technology and news/advertising spam of various forms seems a little much. Like, if the answer is just "Hey, knock it off we don't want flamewars" that's totally respectable...but the other arguments you've used come off as really smug and out-of-touch.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    What a gross thing to say about Dan.
- _iyig 8y ago
  Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I would agree that OP's comment did not seem likely to engender thoughtful discussion. Taking a lot at some other comments, I also understand where you're coming from as a moderator. Keep fighting the good fight; I appreciate the work you're doing.
- gok 8y ago
  What would you say is the opposing point of view here? China is not a communist dictatorship? Or that this is surprising?

Is the OP wrong? Is the point irrelevant to the discussion? In what way is the observation of an admittedly uncomfortable fact "ideological rhetoric"?

by _iyig 8y ago

Is the OP wrong? Is the point irrelevant to the discussion? In what way is the observation of an admittedly uncomfortable fact "ideological rhetoric"?

dang 8y ago

People apply the word 'fact' loosely when it comes to topics they feel strongly about. The point is contentious and disputable in a bunch of ways. That's not necessarily bad, but it is when combined with a declamatory style. Just to be clear though: I'm not making a point about China. I'm making a point about how terrible Hacker News threads become when people allow themselves to post this way. This problem is getting worse as nationalistic feelings are heating up all over. If we're going to keep HN alive as a place for thoughtful discussion, we need users to control their rhetorical impulses and consciously respect opposing points of view. HN is a large for a single internet community (5M readers a month), highly international, and replete with opposing points of view. That ought to be a good thing if we don't tear ourselves apart with them.

angersock 8y ago
You're doing a lot of damage control on China stuff since that partnership thing was announced.
- dang 8y ago
  That's quite an insinuation. Fortunately I have a long history of posts to HN, and anyone bored enough to search through them will easily see that it's not true. To me the weird thing is running across a smear like this at all; it's surreal when someone is sure they know what you're thinking. YC doesn't cross my mind while posting these. What has changed on HN over the last year or two is an uptick in nationalistic flamewar. That's happening because of larger social conditions we're all familiar with, but it has never been welcome on HN, and won't be as long as I'm moderating. That, btw, has nothing to do with which countries people are flaming about. It has to do with the purpose of this site—intellectual curiosity—being incompatible with tribalism. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - seibelj 8y ago
    I have personal and philosophical reasons for being anti socialist and anti communist. I have family that has been killed because of people supporting government actions, like China in the linked article, where they imprison and murder innocent people. I will try to be less inflammatory in the future, but I believe in western ideals. I think watering down criticism of authoritian regimes is a bit rich coming from a website that believes in the “hacker” ethos and “news” meaning a free press. I will make my opinions be more developed, but the underlying themes will not change.
    - dang 8y ago
      I respect your story, as well as those of the many other people on this site whose families have been through unspeakable trauma. Nobody's asking you to "water down" criticism. On the contrary, we're asking people to make more informative comments, instead of just posting empty rhetoric. Generic ideological comments and denunciations of entire countries are examples of empty, fiery rhetoric that we don't want on HN. Why? Because their information content is low, they provoke others into posting worse, and they lead to extremely predictable discussion. The main thing a site dedicated to intellectual curiosity needs to do is not be predictable, so HN is a bad place to fight the same fights over and over. In case it helps, I've been asking people for years on this site not to bash each other's countries, and the countries that have come up would make a long list. There's no national bias in it.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - angersock 8y ago
    > It has to do with the purpose of this site—intellectual curiosity—being incompatible with tribalism. "You might not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you." More seriously, though, the highbrow dismissal of very real problems as tribalism on the same site that frequently has slapfights over technology and news/advertising spam of various forms seems a little much. Like, if the answer is just "Hey, knock it off we don't want flamewars" that's totally respectable...but the other arguments you've used come off as really smug and out-of-touch.
- tptacek 8y ago
  What a gross thing to say about Dan.
_iyig 8y ago
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I would agree that OP's comment did not seem likely to engender thoughtful discussion. Taking a lot at some other comments, I also understand where you're coming from as a moderator. Keep fighting the good fight; I appreciate the work you're doing.
gok 8y ago
What would you say is the opposing point of view here? China is not a communist dictatorship? Or that this is surprising?