11 ms·

Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

162 points by masonic 8y ago

Karishma1234 8y ago
US citizens need visa ?
epmaybe 8y ago
The title does not match the headline on the website. The headline should better reflect the headline: "H-1B visa-reliant Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens’: report" Otherwise, it seems obvious that US citizens would not need visas.
- dang 8y ago
  Thanks. We took a crack at fitting it in 80 chars. Submitted title was "H-1B visa-reliant Cisco secured visas for foreign workers instead of US citizens"
cmurf 8y ago
I think quite a lot of companies are visa reliant. Amazon's H-1B issuance is up 78%. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/13/h-1b-use-skyrocketed-among-bay-area-tech-giants/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/13/h-1b-use-skyrocketed-... Meanwhile there are a bunch of northeast restaurants and crab houses who can't get H-2B seasonal workers at all, and very much need them - they're not getting Americans to do that work. http://www.wboc.com/story/38923157/empty-crab-houses-look-to-fall-season-still-with-no-crab-pickers http://www.wboc.com/story/38923157/empty-crab-houses-look-to... Seems like a disproportionate increase on the one hand, and disproportionate decrease on the other hand.
- atomical 8y ago
  Why does Amazon need to use H1-B when it can open offices overseas and pay workers low wages?
  - outworlder 8y ago
    That's a good point. Make the process hard enough and they will do just that. Now, not only you have (potentially) lost a US position, but now the workers are not even there to pay taxes and consume local goods and services.
  - supercanuck 8y ago
    Because then they would have to hire Indian management and that would reduce the benefit
    - somethingwitty1 8y ago
      But Amazon does have offices in India...many of them: https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=asia_pacific&cache https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=asia_pacific&c...
  - somethingwitty1 8y ago
    I've always found working with your team in one location is far easier than when it is split across time zones (or even physical locations in the same time zone). That said, Amazon does hire overseas, a lot: https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=all&cache https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=all&cache.
romwell 8y ago
Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened. Better headline: Cisco pays visa-holding employees less. This proposed headline, IMO, is more likely to evoke the rational response (Cisco must pay its visa-holding employees a higher salary), rather than the irrational one (dey turk ur jerbs). Perhaps that's why it was not used. † An average salary of $130K cited in the article matches the average salary of a good software engineer in the area. More needs to be said for the statement against Cisco to have any merit, in my opinion.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- User23 8y ago
  How is not wanting competition from aliens in the labor market irrational for native workers? Restricting the labor supply in the market always and everywhere improves labor’s share of societal wealth.
  - romwell 8y ago
    >How is not wanting competition from aliens in the labor market irrational for native workers? Extreme example: Elon Musk was not born in the US. He was an immigrant. Even ignoring the whole nation-of-immigrants ideology, surely you agree that the country and its workers may benefit from immigration? The title makes it seem like hiring any foreign workers is bad a-priori.
    - User23 8y ago
      Committing securities violations on Twitter is a job that Americans just won’t do. Tweets are rotting on the internets! Seriously though, Elon Musk has undoubtedly benefitted from immigrating to the United States, as most immigrants do. Presumably the native born employees of Tesla and his other ventures have directly benefitted as well. Of course it’s impossible to show one way or the other that a native born entrepreneur wouldn’t have filled the same niche. Also nobody likes to talk about the massive deleterious effects on the immigrants home countries of having their best and brightest leave. To answer your direct question I absolutely agree that Americans can benefit from some level of immigration. I don’t believe Americans benefit from a level of migration that makes them a political minority in their own homeland though. Although I admit to anticipating schadenfreude when the foreign majority votes themselves the baby boomer’s assets around 2040.
gnarcoregrizz 8y ago
5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go to a foreign landlord who I've never met. America.
- Karishmra1234 8y ago
  There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.
  - User23 8y ago
    I’ve worked with multiple American and Canadian interns who were far more technically proficient and productive than senior level foreign labor. Everyone knows that people subconsciously prefer to hire people who look like them. This affects Asians too. It’s self evident that organizations with Asian hiring managers prefer to hire their own people. I know this won’t sit well with some people here, but it’s observably true nonetheless.
    - redahs 8y ago
      The previous explanation of declining fertility rates is a real effect which should not be ignored. Since the 1970s, increases to payroll taxes and decreases to taxes on property and capital gains have increased the tax burden on younger working families relative to older families and inflated the cost of housing. This has prevented American families to afford having as many children as early in life, and caused native fertility rates to decline below the population replacement rate. An expanding economy which is increasing in specialization requires additional workers to fill these specialized niches. If native fertility rates are declining, then immigrants are likely to fill these roles.
akshat_h 8y ago
Discussion yesterday on a similar article titled: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers (bloomberglaw.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804755
grad_ml 8y ago
I think this statement is false by nature. If one have secured visa, assuming following law, is something like saying that Cisco have engineers on H1b. Taha, whole world knows that, it's in public domain. This is like saying Google or some other firm is using H1B employee.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  The usual critique is that these visa programs were designed to allow companies to hire a person from another country in cases where no US citizen was available (usually because of some particular skill or unusual knowledge required for the job). But companies have learned how to game the system and "prove" that there are apparently zero US citizens qualified for software development jobs, which then absolutely requires importing people who will work for a far lower salary and be tied to that specific job as a condition of being allowed in the US.
eyeareque 8y ago
My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? Let the college grad learn on the job, instead of the external candidate. I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that only fit the h1b worker so they can help them get a green card. It’s sad. Finally, I believe that companies have too much power over a h1b worker. If they fire them, they only have a month to find a new job and then they have to fly home. It’s bad on all sides.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  As an employer, if you had to choose between two candidates, one of whom was harder working, much more likely to stay long term, had more experience, and was cheaper, which one would you choose? Some of those points you can’t do much about, but others are fundamentally caused by the H-1B restrictions on employees. If they were relaxed it would make the playing field a lot more even, and stop companies from abusing the program to get cheap labor.
- runesoerensen 8y ago
  > My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? In the case of senior roles: Because letting a college grad grow into a job that requires many years of experience, unsurprisingly, takes many years to grow in to. As to entry-level positions I'd assume that a shortage of American candidates would be the reason. Or perhaps some employers have experienced foreign workers that seem more motivated/harder working (for instance they might have more to loose from being fired)? > I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. That would be a violation of H-1B requirements and seems to be why the Department of Labor is taking action against Cisco here. > I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that only fit the h1b worker so they can help them get a green card. I'm curious if you can provide an example of a job description that only fit one H-1B worker? Also, H-1B is a non-immigrant visa, i.e. not a green card. It's a "dual intent" visa, which just means that an employer can legally file for a green card for an employee in H-1B status - it doesn't grant any immigrant benefits or a direct path to permanent residence. > It’s sad. If an employer is abusing the immigration system by somehow designing job descriptions for a specific person (and I'm interested in examples of that as noted above) I agree. However, and I suspect this represents the vast majority of EB visa petitions for temporary workers, I don't find it sad if an employer sponsor a green card after someone has worked in the U.S. for many years. The H-1B visa is limited to 6 years max, after which the worker will have to leave the U.S. In most cases I'd find it quite nice if an employer makes the effort of securing a green card for an someone who has created a life for themselves in the US. It's also ususlly in the best interest of the employer, which is why they spend the time and resources to do it :) > Finally, I believe that companies have too much power over a h1b worker. If they fire them, they only have a month to find a new job and then they have to fly home. It’s bad on all sides. I agree fully with that sentiment, but it's unfortunately worse than you think: Technically an H-1B worker whose employment is terminated have to leave the country immediately. There's a vaguely defined policy granting some degree of lenience/grace period, but it's not a right at all. In reality, a person in H-1B status should see every day in the US as potentially their last - at least in legal status (although very short lapses are often tolerated/accepted).
runesoerensen 8y ago
I'm curious how this is possible considering a certified Labor Condition Application is a requirement of, and must be submitted with, an H-1B petition. An employer essentially attests to various posting requirements, and that the wage (ranges) at least matches the average for the same job title and seniority in a specific area, among other things. The wages listed in the LCA have to be backed by wage data from for instance http://www.flcdatacenter.com http://www.flcdatacenter.com. Seems like the company would have to either misrepresent the job requirements/responsibilities/wage level (seniority).. Or perhaps they'd fake a survey of local wages rather than using the "official" statistics? Otherwise I don't think the Department of Labor would/should certify an LCA with a wage way below market for the position. If they do, though, perhaps that's where the issue can and should be fixed? In practice this also means that employers need to file an amended H-1B petition with a newly certified LCA when an H-1B employee moves to a new area code. For instance, if you move a H-1B software engineer from Denver to San Francisco you'll likely have to pay the employee more. The article does point out that the issue was discovered by the Labor Department (rather than for instance the USCIS, who's responsible for processing the H-1B petition itself), so perhaps that indicates a failure to comply with LCA requirements?
- dmode 8y ago
  Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe. Here's the data https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Software+Engineer&city=SAN+JOSE&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Soft... Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. This is before bonus and RSU as DOL doesn't accept those as salary. So basically median pay is around $150K
  - runesoerensen 8y ago
    > Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940&code=15-1132&year=19&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually say anything about how much Cisco's paying. Those are just the wages Cisco has submitted in LCAs, but I don't think there's any way to verify that an LCA is connected to and used for an approved H-1B petition and actual employment of a foreign worker. > Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe Not sure about HN reader bias (*see edit below), but in this case the Labor Department clearly found some wrongdoing on Cisco's part. Would be interesting to know what that is? Perhaps Cisco is filing all these LCAs to signal that's they're employing workers in all wage levels, but only use the certified LCAs with the lower wages when submitting H-1B petitions? Edit: OK, I'll admit that I do actually know about HN bias a few years back. That was abundantly clear from the shitshow that was the HN discussion about pg's "Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572
into_buttz 8y ago
Many companies do this. I used to work at Apple, where they exploited the hell out of H1-B workers "instead of hiring US citizens". This happens in Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara, and San Francisco (and probably many other parts of the country). Much of this takes place in their IT org: "IS&T" as well as the org that contains iTunes: "Apple Media Products" aka "AMP". They prefer to have foreign workers who can be removed and replaced on a whim. It helps create an environment where people are constantly doing "extra" work to show that they should be converted from contractor to employee (which is many contractors dream, bc if they become and H1-B directly at Apple, they'll be free from the tax that the consulting agencies take from their salary, and it also provides mobility if they aren't as beholden to the consulting agency). It also helps keep salaries low. The IS&T org alone is above 10,000 employees, and there are more contractors than employees by roughly 2.5:1. I would estimate the number of H1B workers in the IS&T org alone would be greater than the total number of H1B workers at Cisco. Apple uses shell contracting agencies, like Tata, Wipro, Infosys, Accenture, etc, so that they don't have to report the number of H1-B's that they have. Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry. If you couple that with severe communication/ESL problems, it's a wonder why any American engineer would work for Apple in these orgs. It's not that there isn't local talent available. It's that the companies are just too cheap. Nobody working there speaks up to hold them accountable, because they believe they're just lucky to have a job at Apple in the first place.
- BLKNSLVR 8y ago
  > Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry This feels like a 'race to the bottom' strategy that will work against the company in the long term.
BLKNSLVR 8y ago
Three scenarios: 1. The Intentionally Bad: A symptom of Ultra-capitalism, working towards short term financial gains to make the next quarter look good for shareholders. 2. The Situationally Bad: Employee salaries at current levels are unsustainable and there isn't the interest from locals to work for lower, more sustainable rates. 3. An Actual Skills Shortage: Can't find suitable people locally, gotta look at the international market. Secondary Point, a gross paraphrasing: First they came for manufacturing, and I didn't speak up because I was a software engineer. Then they came for the software engineers...

162 points by masonic 8y ago

US citizens need visa ?

The title does not match the headline on the website. The headline should better reflect the headline: "H-1B visa-reliant Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens’: report" Otherwise, it seems obvious that US citizens would not need visas.

dang 8y ago
Thanks. We took a crack at fitting it in 80 chars. Submitted title was "H-1B visa-reliant Cisco secured visas for foreign workers instead of US citizens"

cmurf 8y ago

I think quite a lot of companies are visa reliant. Amazon's H-1B issuance is up 78%. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/13/h-1b-use-skyrocketed-among-bay-area-tech-giants/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/13/h-1b-use-skyrocketed-... Meanwhile there are a bunch of northeast restaurants and crab houses who can't get H-2B seasonal workers at all, and very much need them - they're not getting Americans to do that work. http://www.wboc.com/story/38923157/empty-crab-houses-look-to-fall-season-still-with-no-crab-pickers http://www.wboc.com/story/38923157/empty-crab-houses-look-to... Seems like a disproportionate increase on the one hand, and disproportionate decrease on the other hand.

atomical 8y ago
Why does Amazon need to use H1-B when it can open offices overseas and pay workers low wages?
- outworlder 8y ago
  That's a good point. Make the process hard enough and they will do just that. Now, not only you have (potentially) lost a US position, but now the workers are not even there to pay taxes and consume local goods and services.
- supercanuck 8y ago
  Because then they would have to hire Indian management and that would reduce the benefit
  - somethingwitty1 8y ago
    But Amazon does have offices in India...many of them: https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=asia_pacific&cache https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=asia_pacific&c...
- somethingwitty1 8y ago
  I've always found working with your team in one location is far easier than when it is split across time zones (or even physical locations in the same time zone). That said, Amazon does hire overseas, a lot: https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=all&cache https://www.amazon.jobs/locations/?&continent=all&cache.

romwell 8y ago

Securing visas for (and hiring) foreign workers instead of citizens, in itself, is not criminal or wrong -- and absolutely the thing to do when the foreign employees bring skills not available locally. The problem is when this process is used to save on salaries, favoring foreigners over locals on the basis of being able to pay foreigners less only. The article alleges (without evidence!†) that this is what happened. Better headline: Cisco pays visa-holding employees less. This proposed headline, IMO, is more likely to evoke the rational response (Cisco must pay its visa-holding employees a higher salary), rather than the irrational one (dey turk ur jerbs). Perhaps that's why it was not used. † An average salary of $130K cited in the article matches the average salary of a good software engineer in the area. More needs to be said for the statement against Cisco to have any merit, in my opinion.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
User23 8y ago
How is not wanting competition from aliens in the labor market irrational for native workers? Restricting the labor supply in the market always and everywhere improves labor’s share of societal wealth.
- romwell 8y ago
  >How is not wanting competition from aliens in the labor market irrational for native workers? Extreme example: Elon Musk was not born in the US. He was an immigrant. Even ignoring the whole nation-of-immigrants ideology, surely you agree that the country and its workers may benefit from immigration? The title makes it seem like hiring any foreign workers is bad a-priori.
  - User23 8y ago
    Committing securities violations on Twitter is a job that Americans just won’t do. Tweets are rotting on the internets! Seriously though, Elon Musk has undoubtedly benefitted from immigrating to the United States, as most immigrants do. Presumably the native born employees of Tesla and his other ventures have directly benefitted as well. Of course it’s impossible to show one way or the other that a native born entrepreneur wouldn’t have filled the same niche. Also nobody likes to talk about the massive deleterious effects on the immigrants home countries of having their best and brightest leave. To answer your direct question I absolutely agree that Americans can benefit from some level of immigration. I don’t believe Americans benefit from a level of migration that makes them a political minority in their own homeland though. Although I admit to anticipating schadenfreude when the foreign majority votes themselves the baby boomer’s assets around 2040.

gnarcoregrizz 8y ago

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go to a foreign landlord who I've never met. America.

Karishmra1234 8y ago
There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.
- User23 8y ago
  I’ve worked with multiple American and Canadian interns who were far more technically proficient and productive than senior level foreign labor. Everyone knows that people subconsciously prefer to hire people who look like them. This affects Asians too. It’s self evident that organizations with Asian hiring managers prefer to hire their own people. I know this won’t sit well with some people here, but it’s observably true nonetheless.
  - redahs 8y ago
    The previous explanation of declining fertility rates is a real effect which should not be ignored. Since the 1970s, increases to payroll taxes and decreases to taxes on property and capital gains have increased the tax burden on younger working families relative to older families and inflated the cost of housing. This has prevented American families to afford having as many children as early in life, and caused native fertility rates to decline below the population replacement rate. An expanding economy which is increasing in specialization requires additional workers to fill these specialized niches. If native fertility rates are declining, then immigrants are likely to fill these roles.

akshat_h 8y ago

Discussion yesterday on a similar article titled: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers (bloomberglaw.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804755

grad_ml 8y ago

I think this statement is false by nature. If one have secured visa, assuming following law, is something like saying that Cisco have engineers on H1b. Taha, whole world knows that, it's in public domain. This is like saying Google or some other firm is using H1B employee.

ubernostrum 8y ago
The usual critique is that these visa programs were designed to allow companies to hire a person from another country in cases where no US citizen was available (usually because of some particular skill or unusual knowledge required for the job). But companies have learned how to game the system and "prove" that there are apparently zero US citizens qualified for software development jobs, which then absolutely requires importing people who will work for a far lower salary and be tied to that specific job as a condition of being allowed in the US.

eyeareque 8y ago

My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? Let the college grad learn on the job, instead of the external candidate. I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that only fit the h1b worker so they can help them get a green card. It’s sad. Finally, I believe that companies have too much power over a h1b worker. If they fire them, they only have a month to find a new job and then they have to fly home. It’s bad on all sides.

fyfy18 8y ago
As an employer, if you had to choose between two candidates, one of whom was harder working, much more likely to stay long term, had more experience, and was cheaper, which one would you choose? Some of those points you can’t do much about, but others are fundamentally caused by the H-1B restrictions on employees. If they were relaxed it would make the playing field a lot more even, and stop companies from abusing the program to get cheap labor.
runesoerensen 8y ago
> My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? In the case of senior roles: Because letting a college grad grow into a job that requires many years of experience, unsurprisingly, takes many years to grow in to. As to entry-level positions I'd assume that a shortage of American candidates would be the reason. Or perhaps some employers have experienced foreign workers that seem more motivated/harder working (for instance they might have more to loose from being fired)? > I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. That would be a violation of H-1B requirements and seems to be why the Department of Labor is taking action against Cisco here. > I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that only fit the h1b worker so they can help them get a green card. I'm curious if you can provide an example of a job description that only fit one H-1B worker? Also, H-1B is a non-immigrant visa, i.e. not a green card. It's a "dual intent" visa, which just means that an employer can legally file for a green card for an employee in H-1B status - it doesn't grant any immigrant benefits or a direct path to permanent residence. > It’s sad. If an employer is abusing the immigration system by somehow designing job descriptions for a specific person (and I'm interested in examples of that as noted above) I agree. However, and I suspect this represents the vast majority of EB visa petitions for temporary workers, I don't find it sad if an employer sponsor a green card after someone has worked in the U.S. for many years. The H-1B visa is limited to 6 years max, after which the worker will have to leave the U.S. In most cases I'd find it quite nice if an employer makes the effort of securing a green card for an someone who has created a life for themselves in the US. It's also ususlly in the best interest of the employer, which is why they spend the time and resources to do it :) > Finally, I believe that companies have too much power over a h1b worker. If they fire them, they only have a month to find a new job and then they have to fly home. It’s bad on all sides. I agree fully with that sentiment, but it's unfortunately worse than you think: Technically an H-1B worker whose employment is terminated have to leave the country immediately. There's a vaguely defined policy granting some degree of lenience/grace period, but it's not a right at all. In reality, a person in H-1B status should see every day in the US as potentially their last - at least in legal status (although very short lapses are often tolerated/accepted).

runesoerensen 8y ago

I'm curious how this is possible considering a certified Labor Condition Application is a requirement of, and must be submitted with, an H-1B petition. An employer essentially attests to various posting requirements, and that the wage (ranges) at least matches the average for the same job title and seniority in a specific area, among other things. The wages listed in the LCA have to be backed by wage data from for instance http://www.flcdatacenter.com http://www.flcdatacenter.com. Seems like the company would have to either misrepresent the job requirements/responsibilities/wage level (seniority).. Or perhaps they'd fake a survey of local wages rather than using the "official" statistics? Otherwise I don't think the Department of Labor would/should certify an LCA with a wage way below market for the position. If they do, though, perhaps that's where the issue can and should be fixed? In practice this also means that employers need to file an amended H-1B petition with a newly certified LCA when an H-1B employee moves to a new area code. For instance, if you move a H-1B software engineer from Denver to San Francisco you'll likely have to pay the employee more. The article does point out that the issue was discovered by the Labor Department (rather than for instance the USCIS, who's responsible for processing the H-1B petition itself), so perhaps that indicates a failure to comply with LCA requirements?

dmode 8y ago
Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe. Here's the data https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Software+Engineer&city=SAN+JOSE&year=All+Years https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Cisco+Systems+Inc&job=Soft... Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. This is before bonus and RSU as DOL doesn't accept those as salary. So basically median pay is around $150K
- runesoerensen 8y ago
  > Cisco median pay in San Jose is $122k. Yes that seems to be pretty close to the mean wage in San Jose for a likely "Software Engineer" job code: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940&code=15-1132&year=19&source=1 http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41940... Cisco's (posted) wages span the different levels of that job description pretty well as far as I can tell. However it's probably important to note that LCA data (e.g. the data on h1bdata.info) doesn't actually say anything about how much Cisco's paying. Those are just the wages Cisco has submitted in LCAs, but I don't think there's any way to verify that an LCA is connected to and used for an approved H-1B petition and actual employment of a foreign worker. > Because Cisco is "underpaying" H1 workers is a myth that a lot of HN posters like to believe Not sure about HN reader bias (*see edit below), but in this case the Labor Department clearly found some wrongdoing on Cisco's part. Would be interesting to know what that is? Perhaps Cisco is filing all these LCAs to signal that's they're employing workers in all wage levels, but only use the certified LCAs with the lower wages when submitting H-1B petitions? Edit: OK, I'll admit that I do actually know about HN bias a few years back. That was abundantly clear from the shitshow that was the HN discussion about pg's "Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8799572

into_buttz 8y ago

Many companies do this. I used to work at Apple, where they exploited the hell out of H1-B workers "instead of hiring US citizens". This happens in Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara, and San Francisco (and probably many other parts of the country). Much of this takes place in their IT org: "IS&T" as well as the org that contains iTunes: "Apple Media Products" aka "AMP". They prefer to have foreign workers who can be removed and replaced on a whim. It helps create an environment where people are constantly doing "extra" work to show that they should be converted from contractor to employee (which is many contractors dream, bc if they become and H1-B directly at Apple, they'll be free from the tax that the consulting agencies take from their salary, and it also provides mobility if they aren't as beholden to the consulting agency). It also helps keep salaries low. The IS&T org alone is above 10,000 employees, and there are more contractors than employees by roughly 2.5:1. I would estimate the number of H1B workers in the IS&T org alone would be greater than the total number of H1B workers at Cisco. Apple uses shell contracting agencies, like Tata, Wipro, Infosys, Accenture, etc, so that they don't have to report the number of H1-B's that they have. Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry. If you couple that with severe communication/ESL problems, it's a wonder why any American engineer would work for Apple in these orgs. It's not that there isn't local talent available. It's that the companies are just too cheap. Nobody working there speaks up to hold them accountable, because they believe they're just lucky to have a job at Apple in the first place.

BLKNSLVR 8y ago
> Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry This feels like a 'race to the bottom' strategy that will work against the company in the long term.

BLKNSLVR 8y ago

Three scenarios: 1. The Intentionally Bad: A symptom of Ultra-capitalism, working towards short term financial gains to make the next quarter look good for shareholders. 2. The Situationally Bad: Employee salaries at current levels are unsustainable and there isn't the interest from locals to work for lower, more sustainable rates. 3. An Actual Skills Shortage: Can't find suitable people locally, gotta look at the international market. Secondary Point, a gross paraphrasing: First they came for manufacturing, and I didn't speak up because I was a software engineer. Then they came for the software engineers...