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Seeing as Google has its own Java-like VM, what would stop Google from creating its own spec and Apache, and the rest of the Java community, following this spec

Seeing as Google has its own Java-like VM, what would stop Google from creating its own spec and Apache, and the rest of the Java community, following this spec? Can Oracle's patent arsenal stop the Java community from forking?

cletus 16y ago
Oracle's patents and trademarks.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  And their army of lawyers.
jsankey 16y ago
Google's Dalvik VM is specifically designed for mobiles. Presumably a lot of the engineering trade-offs made in light of that would make Dalvik relatively weak on servers. So I'm not sure Dalvik would be a great starting point for Google to fork Java. Having said that, Google are heavily reliant on the Java platform, so they must have at least considered how they can protect the platform if necessary. Could they fork OpenJDK? Or at least support a fork? They certainly have the resources to do it, and Oracle's early moves don't bode well for a cooperative solution, so I wouldn't be surprised. Perhaps they will use the current litigation as a test re: the possible patent issues, although by the time that is resolved it may be too late to make a move...
- wmf 16y ago
  Given that Dalvik is designed to run multiple Java processes with low memory overhead and fast startup, it might actually be pretty great for PaaS like, say, App Engine. That's just speculation, though.
- bad_user 16y ago
  I don't think there's anything in Dalvik's bytecode that's specific to servers, and so they could have 2 versions of the VM: one for mobile phones, and one for the desktop/server. If they'll release specs for Dalvik, make it a standard somehow, I'm pretty sure Apache will help.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
zmmmmm 16y ago
Yes. I can't help thinking that if I was Google, I would be working on an alternative language that compiles directly to Dalvik bytecode as fast as I could. Heck, I'd probably just be grabbing something like Go and throwing 10 pHDs at it. This would help them in many many ways. Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM. This clears them of several legal challenges (still leaving some). Secondly and more importantly, it would up the stakes with Oracle tremendously. Having Google actually abandon Java on Android due to legal concerns would be a huge blow to Java. Especially if Google did so in a way that enabled existing Java applications to be ported easily (by adopting the Apache Harmony libraries, utilizing their existing dexer to enable people to run their existing Java code while picking up Google's replacement language for new code). They'd have to work around any patent violations in the VM which might have some performance impact but I'd still assume it is possible. It would basically change the game to a lose-lose proposition for Oracle - win the court case, get some money, but lose Java. Lose the court case, effectively still lose control of Java.
- technomancy 16y ago
  > Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM. This is already pretty clear; you can run Lua, Scala, Javascript, Scheme, Ruby, and many other languages on Dalvik.
  - zmmmmm 16y ago
    I'm not so sure. A "JVM" is not a Java language interpreter anyway but a Java byte code interpreter. AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format, thus it is arguable that they are all "Java" as far as the VM goes. What Google needs is something that compiles directly to Dalvik's own native format which has no "Java" at all in the pipeline.
    - technomancy 16y ago
      > AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format You seem to think the JVM bytecode format is specific to the Java Programming Language™; why is this? Admittedly Sun has muddled things up here by using the word "Java" to mean many separate things.
davisp 16y ago
Let me preference this as I'm not a Java guy, but I've been reading a bit since Oracle filed suit because of the ASF angle. From what I understand, the Apache Harmony project was doing a clean room implementation of the Java standard library. There was a clause somewhere (I haven't researched the exact text of this) that said something along the lines of "You must pass the TCK (Java's language test suite sort of like rubyspec http://rubyspec.org/ http://rubyspec.org/) to be a 'compatible implmentation'," or some such. Apache Harmony people started writing code and when it got time to say, "Ok, can we have the TCK to validate this?" Sun said, "Yes, as long as you promise no one will run your shit on mobile phones." If you know the ASF, this sort of thing is wildly against their core mission: to make unencumbered software. So they gave Sun-Now-Oracle the finger. Now, we need to cover a few bases here. Apache Harmony is not a VM, its an implementation of the standard library. The patent issues Oracle sued over were related to the Dalvik VM. The important point here is that the Dalvik VM is not Java. Its an interpreter for byte code. The byte code that runs on Dalvik will not run on any other VM. People think that Android Java is Java, but its not. Android Java is Java that's been compiled to JVM bytecode and then been translated to Dalvik bytecode (again, IIUC). The basic point is that 'The Java Language' is not a JVM. It is not a standard library. But there's some weird ass 'Certified Java' thing that can't be obtained unless you give up rights, even though Java is open source. My reading of this IBM/Oracle tryst is that IBM decided that it could get a "TCK certified" Java implementation by backing OpenJava. Which is a long way of saying, no, Google/Apache probably can't just create a new Java spec. The JCP et al will prevent such things. Perhaps they could fork and make a RangerRick language that was source level compatible, but something tells me these people employ too many lawyers for that to go over well.
- wmf 16y ago
  You're mostly right on, but IBM's proprietary J9 JVM has been TCK certified for years. Given that there are two open-source JVMs and one is clearly winning and the other is clearly losing (forever), IBM decided to switch to the winning team (even though open-source Java is kind of a "hobby" for IBM).
  - hga 16y ago
    Hobby or insurance?
tungwaiyip 16y ago
Microsoft did that years ago. And that was widely decried as a move to fragment and subvert the Java community. What's the difference for Google to do this?

cletus 16y ago

Oracle's patents and trademarks.

rbanffy 16y ago
And their army of lawyers.

jsankey 16y ago

Google's Dalvik VM is specifically designed for mobiles. Presumably a lot of the engineering trade-offs made in light of that would make Dalvik relatively weak on servers. So I'm not sure Dalvik would be a great starting point for Google to fork Java. Having said that, Google are heavily reliant on the Java platform, so they must have at least considered how they can protect the platform if necessary. Could they fork OpenJDK? Or at least support a fork? They certainly have the resources to do it, and Oracle's early moves don't bode well for a cooperative solution, so I wouldn't be surprised. Perhaps they will use the current litigation as a test re: the possible patent issues, although by the time that is resolved it may be too late to make a move...

wmf 16y ago
Given that Dalvik is designed to run multiple Java processes with low memory overhead and fast startup, it might actually be pretty great for PaaS like, say, App Engine. That's just speculation, though.
bad_user 16y ago
I don't think there's anything in Dalvik's bytecode that's specific to servers, and so they could have 2 versions of the VM: one for mobile phones, and one for the desktop/server. If they'll release specs for Dalvik, make it a standard somehow, I'm pretty sure Apache will help.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

zmmmmm 16y ago

Yes. I can't help thinking that if I was Google, I would be working on an alternative language that compiles directly to Dalvik bytecode as fast as I could. Heck, I'd probably just be grabbing something like Go and throwing 10 pHDs at it. This would help them in many many ways. Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM. This clears them of several legal challenges (still leaving some). Secondly and more importantly, it would up the stakes with Oracle tremendously. Having Google actually abandon Java on Android due to legal concerns would be a huge blow to Java. Especially if Google did so in a way that enabled existing Java applications to be ported easily (by adopting the Apache Harmony libraries, utilizing their existing dexer to enable people to run their existing Java code while picking up Google's replacement language for new code). They'd have to work around any patent violations in the VM which might have some performance impact but I'd still assume it is possible. It would basically change the game to a lose-lose proposition for Oracle - win the court case, get some money, but lose Java. Lose the court case, effectively still lose control of Java.

technomancy 16y ago
> Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM. This is already pretty clear; you can run Lua, Scala, Javascript, Scheme, Ruby, and many other languages on Dalvik.
- zmmmmm 16y ago
  I'm not so sure. A "JVM" is not a Java language interpreter anyway but a Java byte code interpreter. AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format, thus it is arguable that they are all "Java" as far as the VM goes. What Google needs is something that compiles directly to Dalvik's own native format which has no "Java" at all in the pipeline.
  - technomancy 16y ago
    > AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format You seem to think the JVM bytecode format is specific to the Java Programming Language™; why is this? Admittedly Sun has muddled things up here by using the word "Java" to mean many separate things.

davisp 16y ago

Let me preference this as I'm not a Java guy, but I've been reading a bit since Oracle filed suit because of the ASF angle. From what I understand, the Apache Harmony project was doing a clean room implementation of the Java standard library. There was a clause somewhere (I haven't researched the exact text of this) that said something along the lines of "You must pass the TCK (Java's language test suite sort of like rubyspec http://rubyspec.org/ http://rubyspec.org/) to be a 'compatible implmentation'," or some such. Apache Harmony people started writing code and when it got time to say, "Ok, can we have the TCK to validate this?" Sun said, "Yes, as long as you promise no one will run your shit on mobile phones." If you know the ASF, this sort of thing is wildly against their core mission: to make unencumbered software. So they gave Sun-Now-Oracle the finger. Now, we need to cover a few bases here. Apache Harmony is not a VM, its an implementation of the standard library. The patent issues Oracle sued over were related to the Dalvik VM. The important point here is that the Dalvik VM is not Java. Its an interpreter for byte code. The byte code that runs on Dalvik will not run on any other VM. People think that Android Java is Java, but its not. Android Java is Java that's been compiled to JVM bytecode and then been translated to Dalvik bytecode (again, IIUC). The basic point is that 'The Java Language' is not a JVM. It is not a standard library. But there's some weird ass 'Certified Java' thing that can't be obtained unless you give up rights, even though Java is open source. My reading of this IBM/Oracle tryst is that IBM decided that it could get a "TCK certified" Java implementation by backing OpenJava. Which is a long way of saying, no, Google/Apache probably can't just create a new Java spec. The JCP et al will prevent such things. Perhaps they could fork and make a RangerRick language that was source level compatible, but something tells me these people employ too many lawyers for that to go over well.

wmf 16y ago
You're mostly right on, but IBM's proprietary J9 JVM has been TCK certified for years. Given that there are two open-source JVMs and one is clearly winning and the other is clearly losing (forever), IBM decided to switch to the winning team (even though open-source Java is kind of a "hobby" for IBM).
- hga 16y ago
  Hobby or insurance?

tungwaiyip 16y ago

Microsoft did that years ago. And that was widely decried as a move to fragment and subvert the Java community. What's the difference for Google to do this?