5 ms·

While the planet burns our politicians fiddle

79 points by wil_wheat_on 8y ago

Analemma_ 8y ago
The air quality index in Seattle is 185 right now, which is unheard of; I could barely see the sun yesterday. Last year there was extreme air pollution due to wildfire smoke for the first time that I can remember, and I thought then maybe it was a anomalous event, but now that it's twice in two years it's probably time to think of this as the new normal. And as much as I want to blame politicians as an easy target, it's still a democracy and they are ultimately just reflecting the views of the public. The Seattle Times is running stories on the wildfire smoke, and their comment section is depressingly filled to the brim with nonsense like "ACTUALLY this is because the environmentalists clear out underbrush and create more forest fires, CHECKMATE LIBRULZ". We're going to sink under the waves still screaming culture war nonsense with our last breaths.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >still a democracy and they are ultimately just reflecting the views of the public Seems more like a reflection of the views of corporations than the public
- nostromo 8y ago
  Most scientists agree that the uptick in serious fires in the west is primarily from decades of bad forrest management, not climate change. Climate change obviously plays a role, but it's not the primary driver. I think some activist groups and the media are purposefully muddying the water on this issue. http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wildfire-in-the-west/ http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wi... http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-washington-smoke-darkest-before.html http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-washington-smo...
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Syonyk aka Russell Graves has an interesting post summarizing the issue: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/08/wildfires-in-western-united-states.html https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/08/wildfires-in-western-uni... (he's not an expert, so take it with a grain of salt)
  - quacked 8y ago
    I agree that from what most scientists are saying, that sounds like the availability of fuel; but could climate change be responsible for the unusually hot and dry conditions?
    - Bertio 8y ago
      Climate change is responsible for the increase in temperatures which lead to an increase in lightening. Climate change is also responsible for the wet conditions in the spring creating additional fuel later in the summer.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Even if it's not the primary cause, this is a highly visible, concrete set of events that can be pointed at to increase awareness. I don't condone dishonesty or propaganda, but using these events to help point out that a) climate change is really happening, b) it's not just a few extra hot days during the summer, seems perfectly okay.
  - geoka9 8y ago
    > Climate change obviously plays a role... FWIW, here in BC the 3 summers that we had fires coincided with the record beating heat.
  - lifeformed 8y ago
    The idea that it's the "environmentalists' fault" is backwards though. Wildfires were poorly understood earlier in the century and it made sense to suppress them all. Environmentalists were advocating since the 20's for allowing controlled natural fires. It wasn't until some bad fires in the 80's when proper policies were finally put into place. The consequences of bad forest management from earlier decades will still play out for a while longer, but now that the correct policies are in place, it will cease to become an excuse, while the consequences of climate change are only going to worsen. Forests have been increasingly drier and hotter. Logging activity has cut down the most fire resistant trees and replaced it with flammable young ones. Trump suggests to increase logging and blame the liberals. When politicians blame forest management from a century ago, it is an argument in bad faith, as a way to ignore the myriad impacts of climate change. We should be constantly improving our forest management, yes, but it's something already being worked on, while there is so much resistance to policies to reduce climate change.
- mhneu 8y ago
  There is a large domestic disinformation machine in the US. The disinformation media has for decades used identity politics to get Americans to vote for policies that benefit the 0.01%. Nowhere is this clearer than with climate change. In my experience, many of those in the disinformation bubble have no idea that climate change denial benefits oil and gas companies and is heavily funded by them. If you’re interested in disinformation and how it affects climate change policy, the book and movie Merchants of Doubt is really great- it explains some of the strategies used.
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  The problem, as you pointed out, is that it has nothing to do with thinking and everything to do with hating. You could give conservatives great environmental solutions for free, and they'd still reject them, because they know liberals would like it. They hate wind power, hate solar power, and it's got nothing to do with economics. Yet they like nuclear power. Why? Hippies don't like it. And I don't think the politicians are close to blameless. They've cultivated this for 25 years. They're not just reflecting the will of the people, they're shaping it.
mdekkers 8y ago
funny, the poor guy believes politicians can actually make these kinds of changes. As long as polluting is more profitable than not polluting, our corporate overlords will keep pumping that shit into the air. And as a general populace, we all _think_ something should be done, as long as it doesn't affect us.
- sremani 8y ago
  Its not just about corporations. If the sinners are a dozen of "them", the solutions are easy. If you have good standard of living in a middle/lower income country or if you are not homeless in a developed country, You Sir! are responsible for a lot, than you are willing to accept.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
root_axis 8y ago
It's not just politicians; the citizenry does not really care and many are openly hostile to the idea of taking firm steps to reduce emissions since that has an economic cost and they view the economic cost as a bigger threat than whatever impact emissions have on the environment.
- gthaman 8y ago
  The citizenry in the USA (im assuming you are being specific to) are a good deal worse off than in the 1950s in regard to household families and being overtly manipulated and jerked around in regards to the political process with whatever little time they have to engage with it. The governments (its actors, known or unknown) are the ones with considerable resources and power consolidated in a few hands and intelligence agencies leaders who write books about deceiving their own people saying "we'll know our job is complete when everything the american people believe is a lie". USA is mired in military action in 76 countries that we know of - USA was at war for every single day of all 8 years of Obama's presidencies - Drone Strikes, Mass Heroin overdoses, San Francisco homeless & human feces poop map's but we finally got those plastic straws replaced with good old american democracy and know how. What a contrast. What prioritizing. With every passing day, more and more people are starting to realize it's not ineptitude, it's deceit. And the more heed paid to the government, the more reliance on and guidance from the government - the worse.
  - whatwow 8y ago
    The main problem in the US is that corporations and the wealthy have used populism to wage war on government. Thomas Frank's work on 'populist pro-business conservatism' is the reference on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... They try to get citizens to hate the government so they can shrink it and cut taxes on themselves. They use disinformation to do so. The main deceit comes from right-wing populist disinformation. You can also read Thomas Piketty on how wealth inequality allows the very wealthy to spend money to influence politics. In the US, that's taken the form of anti-government disinformation.
  - 8y ago
Zealotux 8y ago
This is the main reason I'm more than skeptical of our ability to even limit the effects of climate change in a foreseeable future, I'll admit it's a cynical view, but even if tomorrow every world leaders agreed that climate is indeed our top priority it'd still be a challenge to tackle it. Instead of that we have endless debates, as if we had time for partisanship, and short-sighted "patching" solutions. I've been told repetitively that I'm wrong to "believe" in climate change, I hope I am, at that point: being wrong is our only way for salvation.
- sebazzz 8y ago
  In the end everything comes down on money, especially in the USA where the election system depends so much on the candidates getting enough (mostly corporate) donations (or friendly bribing, however you want to call it).
  - candiodari 8y ago
    And in China, which is supposedly different, the situation is 100x worse ... But thanks for the comment ... It clearly illustrates that plenty of pro-global-warming people don't care about global warming except as a way to get their will done on other issues, in this case campaign financing.
    - wool_gather 8y ago
      What do you mean by "pro-global-warming"? People who want global warming to happen? Or people who don't deny its existence?
decebalus1 8y ago
Does this article violate HN terms or something? It got flagged in less than an hour and most comments are downvoted.
- root_axis 8y ago
  I didn't flag and I think the discussion is worthwhile, but any U.S. political topic that isn't directly related to tech is usually flagged.
- mhneu 8y ago
  Not sure but it’s important to remember that silence on issues like climate change benefits the status quo- the companies that wish to keep up the current situation. Avoiding conversations like this is the same as taking a side - the companies’ side. Too bad it’s not discussed more.
zackmorris 8y ago
I live in Boise, ID and this is the worst smoke I've seen in my lifetime. I fully agree that global climate change is a huge problem and that politicians are doing little to stop it. Most seem to be making it worse. Is there a technology-based solution to this? I don't know, but maybe technology could be used to improve the tragedy of the commons issues that are wrecking the planet. Please unflag this post.
- geoka9 8y ago
  I'm in Vancouver and it's pretty terrible. It's the 3rd summer in a row and this one is by far the worst. +1 Please unflag this post.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
watmough 8y ago
We are already suffering from severe austerity after the collapse in 2008. Pay for the bottom 70% of people in the Western World falls further and further behind. The present political mess, including in the US and in the UK, and across Europe is clear fall-out from these problems. In this context, imposing further high-taxes to restrict energy use is political suicide, and simply won't happen. In the longer-term, moving to wind and solar will help, especially as energy storage technologies improve. Countries such as Spain and Portugal are showing us the way in this respect.
sebazzz 8y ago
This makes you think that maybe not individual humans, but a human society is destined to cause enough damage to eventually eradicate itself. The problems we cause "take too long" to become an problem in the influencial lifetime of the most powerful people in our society, so it is always the problem of someone else until it is too late.

79 points by wil_wheat_on 8y ago

The air quality index in Seattle is 185 right now, which is unheard of; I could barely see the sun yesterday. Last year there was extreme air pollution due to wildfire smoke for the first time that I can remember, and I thought then maybe it was a anomalous event, but now that it's twice in two years it's probably time to think of this as the new normal. And as much as I want to blame politicians as an easy target, it's still a democracy and they are ultimately just reflecting the views of the public. The Seattle Times is running stories on the wildfire smoke, and their comment section is depressingly filled to the brim with nonsense like "ACTUALLY this is because the environmentalists clear out underbrush and create more forest fires, CHECKMATE LIBRULZ". We're going to sink under the waves still screaming culture war nonsense with our last breaths.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>still a democracy and they are ultimately just reflecting the views of the public Seems more like a reflection of the views of corporations than the public
nostromo 8y ago
Most scientists agree that the uptick in serious fires in the west is primarily from decades of bad forrest management, not climate change. Climate change obviously plays a role, but it's not the primary driver. I think some activist groups and the media are purposefully muddying the water on this issue. http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wildfire-in-the-west/ http://mjr.jour.umt.edu/how-journalists-fan-the-flames-of-wi... http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-washington-smoke-darkest-before.html http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/08/western-washington-smo...
- icebraining 8y ago
  Syonyk aka Russell Graves has an interesting post summarizing the issue: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/08/wildfires-in-western-united-states.html https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/08/wildfires-in-western-uni... (he's not an expert, so take it with a grain of salt)
- quacked 8y ago
  I agree that from what most scientists are saying, that sounds like the availability of fuel; but could climate change be responsible for the unusually hot and dry conditions?
  - Bertio 8y ago
    Climate change is responsible for the increase in temperatures which lead to an increase in lightening. Climate change is also responsible for the wet conditions in the spring creating additional fuel later in the summer.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Even if it's not the primary cause, this is a highly visible, concrete set of events that can be pointed at to increase awareness. I don't condone dishonesty or propaganda, but using these events to help point out that a) climate change is really happening, b) it's not just a few extra hot days during the summer, seems perfectly okay.
- geoka9 8y ago
  > Climate change obviously plays a role... FWIW, here in BC the 3 summers that we had fires coincided with the record beating heat.
- lifeformed 8y ago
  The idea that it's the "environmentalists' fault" is backwards though. Wildfires were poorly understood earlier in the century and it made sense to suppress them all. Environmentalists were advocating since the 20's for allowing controlled natural fires. It wasn't until some bad fires in the 80's when proper policies were finally put into place. The consequences of bad forest management from earlier decades will still play out for a while longer, but now that the correct policies are in place, it will cease to become an excuse, while the consequences of climate change are only going to worsen. Forests have been increasingly drier and hotter. Logging activity has cut down the most fire resistant trees and replaced it with flammable young ones. Trump suggests to increase logging and blame the liberals. When politicians blame forest management from a century ago, it is an argument in bad faith, as a way to ignore the myriad impacts of climate change. We should be constantly improving our forest management, yes, but it's something already being worked on, while there is so much resistance to policies to reduce climate change.
mhneu 8y ago
There is a large domestic disinformation machine in the US. The disinformation media has for decades used identity politics to get Americans to vote for policies that benefit the 0.01%. Nowhere is this clearer than with climate change. In my experience, many of those in the disinformation bubble have no idea that climate change denial benefits oil and gas companies and is heavily funded by them. If you’re interested in disinformation and how it affects climate change policy, the book and movie Merchants of Doubt is really great- it explains some of the strategies used.
yourbandsucks 8y ago
The problem, as you pointed out, is that it has nothing to do with thinking and everything to do with hating. You could give conservatives great environmental solutions for free, and they'd still reject them, because they know liberals would like it. They hate wind power, hate solar power, and it's got nothing to do with economics. Yet they like nuclear power. Why? Hippies don't like it. And I don't think the politicians are close to blameless. They've cultivated this for 25 years. They're not just reflecting the will of the people, they're shaping it.

mdekkers 8y ago

funny, the poor guy believes politicians can actually make these kinds of changes. As long as polluting is more profitable than not polluting, our corporate overlords will keep pumping that shit into the air. And as a general populace, we all _think_ something should be done, as long as it doesn't affect us.

sremani 8y ago
Its not just about corporations. If the sinners are a dozen of "them", the solutions are easy. If you have good standard of living in a middle/lower income country or if you are not homeless in a developed country, You Sir! are responsible for a lot, than you are willing to accept.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

root_axis 8y ago

It's not just politicians; the citizenry does not really care and many are openly hostile to the idea of taking firm steps to reduce emissions since that has an economic cost and they view the economic cost as a bigger threat than whatever impact emissions have on the environment.

gthaman 8y ago
The citizenry in the USA (im assuming you are being specific to) are a good deal worse off than in the 1950s in regard to household families and being overtly manipulated and jerked around in regards to the political process with whatever little time they have to engage with it. The governments (its actors, known or unknown) are the ones with considerable resources and power consolidated in a few hands and intelligence agencies leaders who write books about deceiving their own people saying "we'll know our job is complete when everything the american people believe is a lie". USA is mired in military action in 76 countries that we know of - USA was at war for every single day of all 8 years of Obama's presidencies - Drone Strikes, Mass Heroin overdoses, San Francisco homeless & human feces poop map's but we finally got those plastic straws replaced with good old american democracy and know how. What a contrast. What prioritizing. With every passing day, more and more people are starting to realize it's not ineptitude, it's deceit. And the more heed paid to the government, the more reliance on and guidance from the government - the worse.
- whatwow 8y ago
  The main problem in the US is that corporations and the wealthy have used populism to wage war on government. Thomas Frank's work on 'populist pro-business conservatism' is the reference on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... They try to get citizens to hate the government so they can shrink it and cut taxes on themselves. They use disinformation to do so. The main deceit comes from right-wing populist disinformation. You can also read Thomas Piketty on how wealth inequality allows the very wealthy to spend money to influence politics. In the US, that's taken the form of anti-government disinformation.
- 8y ago

Zealotux 8y ago

This is the main reason I'm more than skeptical of our ability to even limit the effects of climate change in a foreseeable future, I'll admit it's a cynical view, but even if tomorrow every world leaders agreed that climate is indeed our top priority it'd still be a challenge to tackle it. Instead of that we have endless debates, as if we had time for partisanship, and short-sighted "patching" solutions. I've been told repetitively that I'm wrong to "believe" in climate change, I hope I am, at that point: being wrong is our only way for salvation.

sebazzz 8y ago
In the end everything comes down on money, especially in the USA where the election system depends so much on the candidates getting enough (mostly corporate) donations (or friendly bribing, however you want to call it).
- candiodari 8y ago
  And in China, which is supposedly different, the situation is 100x worse ... But thanks for the comment ... It clearly illustrates that plenty of pro-global-warming people don't care about global warming except as a way to get their will done on other issues, in this case campaign financing.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    What do you mean by "pro-global-warming"? People who want global warming to happen? Or people who don't deny its existence?

decebalus1 8y ago

Does this article violate HN terms or something? It got flagged in less than an hour and most comments are downvoted.

root_axis 8y ago
I didn't flag and I think the discussion is worthwhile, but any U.S. political topic that isn't directly related to tech is usually flagged.
mhneu 8y ago
Not sure but it’s important to remember that silence on issues like climate change benefits the status quo- the companies that wish to keep up the current situation. Avoiding conversations like this is the same as taking a side - the companies’ side. Too bad it’s not discussed more.

zackmorris 8y ago

I live in Boise, ID and this is the worst smoke I've seen in my lifetime. I fully agree that global climate change is a huge problem and that politicians are doing little to stop it. Most seem to be making it worse. Is there a technology-based solution to this? I don't know, but maybe technology could be used to improve the tragedy of the commons issues that are wrecking the planet. Please unflag this post.

geoka9 8y ago
I'm in Vancouver and it's pretty terrible. It's the 3rd summer in a row and this one is by far the worst. +1 Please unflag this post.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

watmough 8y ago

We are already suffering from severe austerity after the collapse in 2008. Pay for the bottom 70% of people in the Western World falls further and further behind. The present political mess, including in the US and in the UK, and across Europe is clear fall-out from these problems. In this context, imposing further high-taxes to restrict energy use is political suicide, and simply won't happen. In the longer-term, moving to wind and solar will help, especially as energy storage technologies improve. Countries such as Spain and Portugal are showing us the way in this respect.

sebazzz 8y ago

This makes you think that maybe not individual humans, but a human society is destined to cause enough damage to eventually eradicate itself. The problems we cause "take too long" to become an problem in the influencial lifetime of the most powerful people in our society, so it is always the problem of someone else until it is too late.