5 ms·

>it’s hard to abuse since taking too much will just make you dizzy/nauseated/anxious, a mistake most users only make once; it doesn’t cause respiratory depressi

>it’s hard to abuse since taking too much will just make you dizzy/nauseated/anxious, a mistake most users only make once; it doesn’t cause respiratory depression (doesn’t recruit β-arrestin2) so it won’t kill you if you overdose; This is dangerous misinformation. It is known to cause seizures, psychosis, and liver toxicity, and some medical authorities say it does cause respiratory depression. It has been linked to several deaths. As with any drug, more research is needed, e.g. to isolate the effects from those of other drugs that users commonly take with it. But no one should be encouraged to put this stuff in their body.

brogrammer5 8y ago
Yes it can cause those things...in combination with other drugs but where is the evidence that it causes those symptoms on its own? Many drugs become deadly in combinations that are otherwise harmless on their own.
evincarofautumn 8y ago
You’re right—I’m absolutely not suggesting people go out and take it willy-nilly. I’m saying we have anecdotal evidence that it could be effective in a clinical setting, because people (including myself) are currently going out and taking it willy-nilly. Personally I would like it to remain available OTC but I’d be fine if it ended up scheduled for prescription only. It’s my understanding that there are no records of deaths that were clearly caused by kratom alone—but there are a few dozen cases that the FDA has published where someone has died with kratom in their system, usually alongside other drugs such as opiates, alcohol, benzos, or steroids—but also (and here’s where I call “junk science”) from a fall and a gunshot wound. We currently don’t know to what extent it interacts with other drugs—it’s a bad idea to take it with anything else that affects your breathing, or an MAOI. As for the “won’t kill you” claim: β-arrestin2 recruitment is responsible for the main deleterious side effects of traditional opiates, including respiratory depression, constipation, and tolerance buildup. These are reduced but not eliminated when taking kratom, similar to how morphine behaves in knockout mice lacking this protein. It could still certainly kill you, although the best estimate we have right now is “you’d have to take an awful lot of it”—probably via extracts, unless you want to eat a few pounds of leaves. Mitragynine and 7-OH-mitra are metabolised by the liver, and yes, there are some reports of liver toxicity. I have heard of seizures in cases where someone was already detoxing and susceptible. I had not heard of kratom-induced psychosis—do you have a citation handy?
- marcoperaza 8y ago
  Wikipedia is citing the psychosis claim to: Warner ML, Kaufman NC, Grundmann O (2016). "The pharmacology and toxicology of kratom: from traditional herb to drug of abuse". Int. J. Legal Med. (Review). 130 (1): 127–38. doi:10.1007/s00414-015-1279-y. PMID 26511390.
brandoncordell 8y ago
Has it been linked to any deaths on it's own yet? AFAIK it's links haven't been much more than a line item on a toxicology report. One of these reports was a self-inflicted gunshot wound if I recall correctly. I think it's pretty disingenuous to call that a link. I'm not saying that you're being disingenuous but that people are using examples like that pushing the FDA for a ban. I will see if I can locate the findings of the journalist that scoured the reports that were giving to the FDA.
pstuart 8y ago
Outliers or common results? I'm guessing the former. Would you care to list all the side effects and dangers of every other pharma product as well? What I've seen in the press is several accounts of deaths where it was present in the bloodstream but there along with many other drugs: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kratom-deaths-georgia_us_5a2060a3e4b03c44072c0b91 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kratom-deaths-georgia_u...

brogrammer5 8y ago

Yes it can cause those things...in combination with other drugs but where is the evidence that it causes those symptoms on its own? Many drugs become deadly in combinations that are otherwise harmless on their own.

evincarofautumn 8y ago

You’re right—I’m absolutely not suggesting people go out and take it willy-nilly. I’m saying we have anecdotal evidence that it could be effective in a clinical setting, because people (including myself) are currently going out and taking it willy-nilly. Personally I would like it to remain available OTC but I’d be fine if it ended up scheduled for prescription only. It’s my understanding that there are no records of deaths that were clearly caused by kratom alone—but there are a few dozen cases that the FDA has published where someone has died with kratom in their system, usually alongside other drugs such as opiates, alcohol, benzos, or steroids—but also (and here’s where I call “junk science”) from a fall and a gunshot wound. We currently don’t know to what extent it interacts with other drugs—it’s a bad idea to take it with anything else that affects your breathing, or an MAOI. As for the “won’t kill you” claim: β-arrestin2 recruitment is responsible for the main deleterious side effects of traditional opiates, including respiratory depression, constipation, and tolerance buildup. These are reduced but not eliminated when taking kratom, similar to how morphine behaves in knockout mice lacking this protein. It could still certainly kill you, although the best estimate we have right now is “you’d have to take an awful lot of it”—probably via extracts, unless you want to eat a few pounds of leaves. Mitragynine and 7-OH-mitra are metabolised by the liver, and yes, there are some reports of liver toxicity. I have heard of seizures in cases where someone was already detoxing and susceptible. I had not heard of kratom-induced psychosis—do you have a citation handy?

marcoperaza 8y ago
Wikipedia is citing the psychosis claim to: Warner ML, Kaufman NC, Grundmann O (2016). "The pharmacology and toxicology of kratom: from traditional herb to drug of abuse". Int. J. Legal Med. (Review). 130 (1): 127–38. doi:10.1007/s00414-015-1279-y. PMID 26511390.

brandoncordell 8y ago

Has it been linked to any deaths on it's own yet? AFAIK it's links haven't been much more than a line item on a toxicology report. One of these reports was a self-inflicted gunshot wound if I recall correctly. I think it's pretty disingenuous to call that a link. I'm not saying that you're being disingenuous but that people are using examples like that pushing the FDA for a ban. I will see if I can locate the findings of the journalist that scoured the reports that were giving to the FDA.

pstuart 8y ago

Outliers or common results? I'm guessing the former. Would you care to list all the side effects and dangers of every other pharma product as well? What I've seen in the press is several accounts of deaths where it was present in the bloodstream but there along with many other drugs: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kratom-deaths-georgia_us_5a2060a3e4b03c44072c0b91 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kratom-deaths-georgia_u...