3 ms·

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whet

by tjoff 8y ago

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

vemv 8y ago
Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature. Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably. Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well. A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired. So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms. I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.
- tjoff 8y ago
  I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards. Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic. I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.
  - vemv 8y ago
    Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day. The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').
    - tjoff 8y ago
      Maybe I overestimate how much I use the keyboard but I still see hours on straight where I would not want to move my hands away from the keyboard. You don't need to reach for the keyboard due to supports, you are resting on the home row. Yes, movement is important and one should take breaks but that is something one should do regardless of posture. I see how lifting hands can improve that but it has to be balanced against the negatives. If moving a hand to use the mouse is seen as a big pain point I have a hard time to see how one would rest unused hands on the legs? Underneath the table?
      - deno 8y ago
        When you bend your arms at 90° where are your palms? With proper posture/keyboard height they should be over the keyboard. If you’re sitting straight it’s natural to bring your keyboard to the edge of the desk. But if you prefer to be under the desk then just rest on the desk. I made a really quick sketch some time ago maybe it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6 http://svgur.com/s/7e6 That wrist angle on the green dude is very exaggerated, the point was to show that the fingers are in their natural positions, rather than curled, which is what happens when your wrists are glued. EDIT: Also just look where the piano lady is resting her hands.
deno 8y ago
> It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? No, just rest your palms on desk or legs when not typing. The point is to just not glue them when you are actually typing.
hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience. My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion. Trying to support your arms while typing would create tremendous tension in your shoulders. I was always confused by the classic typist advice to have no arm rests.
- deno 8y ago
  If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight. Likely leaning out on back “support” and your neck tensed up or on head “support” unless you have your monitor actually over above you. Needless to say, trying to keep your wrists up in that position would be uncomfortable. The best keyboard placement in this position is on your legs/thighs. Thin chiclet keyboard only laying flat. It’s not a replacement for fixing your posture, of course.
  - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
    If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight What an ignorant statement. It very obviously depends on the chair and body in question.
    - deno 8y ago
      So are you sitting up straight or leaning back?
      - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
        Sitting up straight. You need to go chair shopping.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]

by tjoff 8y ago

vemv 8y ago

Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature. Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably. Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well. A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired. So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms. I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.

tjoff 8y ago
I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards. Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic. I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.
- vemv 8y ago
  Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day. The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').
  - tjoff 8y ago
    Maybe I overestimate how much I use the keyboard but I still see hours on straight where I would not want to move my hands away from the keyboard. You don't need to reach for the keyboard due to supports, you are resting on the home row. Yes, movement is important and one should take breaks but that is something one should do regardless of posture. I see how lifting hands can improve that but it has to be balanced against the negatives. If moving a hand to use the mouse is seen as a big pain point I have a hard time to see how one would rest unused hands on the legs? Underneath the table?
    - deno 8y ago
      When you bend your arms at 90° where are your palms? With proper posture/keyboard height they should be over the keyboard. If you’re sitting straight it’s natural to bring your keyboard to the edge of the desk. But if you prefer to be under the desk then just rest on the desk. I made a really quick sketch some time ago maybe it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6 http://svgur.com/s/7e6 That wrist angle on the green dude is very exaggerated, the point was to show that the fingers are in their natural positions, rather than curled, which is what happens when your wrists are glued. EDIT: Also just look where the piano lady is resting her hands.

deno 8y ago

> It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? No, just rest your palms on desk or legs when not typing. The point is to just not glue them when you are actually typing.

hfdgiutdryg 8y ago

Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience. My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion. Trying to support your arms while typing would create tremendous tension in your shoulders. I was always confused by the classic typist advice to have no arm rests.

deno 8y ago
If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight. Likely leaning out on back “support” and your neck tensed up or on head “support” unless you have your monitor actually over above you. Needless to say, trying to keep your wrists up in that position would be uncomfortable. The best keyboard placement in this position is on your legs/thighs. Thin chiclet keyboard only laying flat. It’s not a replacement for fixing your posture, of course.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
  If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight What an ignorant statement. It very obviously depends on the chair and body in question.
  - deno 8y ago
    So are you sitting up straight or leaning back?
    - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
      Sitting up straight. You need to go chair shopping.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]