7 ms·

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing recor

by deno 8y ago

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2B5XRtr6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2B5XRtr6k Imagine you tried playing a piano the way you type on your keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0 The pain is letting you know you’re doing something wrong.

brennebeck 8y ago
Huh. I had no idea I typed pretty healthily. Thank you. But... references? (It does make sense, though)
- deno 8y ago
  Practically all ergonomic studies start from the position of compromised wrist placement and measure what angle does least damage. That’s how you end up with split “ergonomic” keyboards. This is the height you need for your monitor to not encourage slouching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S467Ck8uIsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S467Ck8uIsc . You also need to touch type which not everyone can. As a result most office workers have terrible postures. I bet you would run into trouble just trying to find enough people that can both touch type and have good enough posture to do such study. But I would start with piano players.
  - melling 8y ago
    I’ve got dozens of stories about people with RSI here: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README.org https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README... There doesn’t seem to be one cause or one solution.
    - deno 8y ago
      You can put everything in that list into 3 categories: 1. Fixing the problem: posture & monitor/keyboard height 2. Masking the problem: anything with the word ergonomic 3. Avoiding the problem: typing less/taking frequent (flow-interrupting) breaks Of course most people with pain want quick solutions, so no. 2 is going to be over-represented. Fixing your posture actually takes work to stretch/compress different muscle groups over a period of time, otherwise you’re back to slouching after 10 minutes.
      - melling 8y ago
        There are some plenty of programmers who have dealt with problems for years: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html I wouldn’t trivialize anything. Happens to designers too. This was on the front of HN a few years ago: http://www.looknohands.me http://www.looknohands.me
        deno 8y ago
        Acknowledging the fact that most people working with computers have horrible postures is not trivializing anything.
        melling 8y ago
        Many people claim the Mind Body Approach solved their problem: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html Claiming the entire problem is posture might not be the answer. We should definitely be looking more deeply into the problem and solutions. The creator of Tcl/Tk has been dealing with RSI for over 20 years, for example: http://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/wrist.php http://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/wrist.php
        deno 8y ago
        Obviously I can’t prove a negative, but: > This made a substantial difference in my comfort level; it's amazing how tense you are under normal conditions and how much you can relax if you know how. That’s exactly the biggest benefit I got from fixing my posture. Being able to relax. Also fixing my deviated septum, but posture alone can compromise your breathing to that degree as well. > As soon as I would get up out of my chair and do other activities, the symptoms would go away again. Bingo.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 8y ago
  There's quite a body of knowledge on body mechanics that doesn't seem to get much reflection in scientific publications. The only possible exception is the Alexander technique, and even this one is very much obscure. Not because it's secret or something like that, it's that these things don't seem to be searched for. BTW, healthy writing (according to Palmer) is very similar: you rest your elbow and little finger on the desk and write by floating your whole hand above in a very relaxed way.
  - vemv 8y ago
    I wouln't rest my elbow (or forearms) on anything, it's an unnatural pressure. Instead I place the keyboard at the border of the desk, so I can't possibly lean my arms on the desk. Granted, you have to use more force to keep your whole arms lifted for hours, but it's good that you can know when do you need a rest.
wruza 8y ago
I can imagine typing a wordy contract with this body and hand position, but not programming. He doesn’t use ctrl/shift much, and when he does, it seems not like a quick thing. He also will bottom out as hell even on non-horrible keyboard. (Mac kbd is far from horrible when compared to other membranes, btw.) I’m not a homerow-guy even, but try to {foo:(x,y)=>(x[y]+1)} and I bet this method will feel the struggle.
- deno 8y ago
  I don't understand the problem...? Here's a quick demo of me typing some special characters with my natural typing position: https://streamable.com/tavn6 https://streamable.com/tavn6 For something like $ or # I’ll use my right pinky for shift and the left hand, which I can’t really demo with one hand holding camera. The right side is easily reachable if you don’t glue your wrist—try it. EDIT: Here’a the full thing with spaces: https://streamable.com/h0bpr https://streamable.com/h0bpr
  - wruza 8y ago
    Just tried your way and have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it isn’t much different from how I do (bases on erf, kop/jio and sliding around). On the other, side moving is much easier due to no friction; also much ‘slippery’ if not controlled. Probably should give it a week to see how is it to hold a big right angle for a long time. Thanks for sharing!
    - deno 8y ago
      You need a slightly different mental map of your keyboard. I think I use the edges/shifts as a reference (Model F doesn’t have the bumps at J/F at all), but that’s just a guess.
tjoff 8y ago
It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.
- vemv 8y ago
  Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature. Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably. Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well. A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired. So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms. I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.
  - tjoff 8y ago
    I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards. Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic. I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.
    - vemv 8y ago
      Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day. The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').
eru 8y ago
No, thanks. I'd rather use my Kinesis Advantage than a horrible layout on a horrible flat keyboard.
- deno 8y ago
  I’m typing this comment on an IBM Model F XT. The video is to show proper typing posture not an endorsement of chiclet style keyboards. But you could even type on this crap and be comfortable, because posture fixes the problem instead of masking it, like that Kinesis.
  - eru 8y ago
    Oh, posture is good. But I'd rather have good posture on a keyboard with keys lined in direct columns etc. (Truth be told, my Kinesis Advantage sits on my standing desk at work where I spend most of my screen time and typing. I'm tying on my MacBook's chiclet.)
    - deno 8y ago
      The issue is the tension you create by gluing your wrists and then having to curl your fingers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA On Kinesis you minimize this issue but your hands are still mostly static and never relax.
brandonmenc 8y ago
Agree with you in general - that adjusting your body, and not your keyboard, is the fix - but not necessarily the specifics. The most important fixes imo are: - Neutral angle wrists (elbows flared so that it's a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, i.e. no wrist "yaw") - Monitor at eye-level - Forearms parallel to the ground - Feet planted on the floor afaik slouching takes pressure of the lumbar vertebrae, but neither that nor sitting up straight is uncomfortable for me, and I arbitrarily alternate between the two. Also, arms resting on the desk doesn't bother me. I find it nearly impossible to work on a laptop for any length of time, mostly because of the monitor-at-eye-level requirement. Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.
- deno 8y ago
  I take no issue with anything on that list. The pressure on lumbar is because of the positioning of your pelvis[1]. > Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2. I have my monitor on top of an entire hifi set and an old VHS player. But yeah an arm seems more sensible ;) [1] https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg
  - brandonmenc 8y ago
    Agree - that image looks painful, but I'd term that a "hunch" more than a "slouch" (not sure if ergonomics makes a distinction between the two.) My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable.
    - deno 8y ago
      > My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable. Reclining is fine for relaxing but it’s not an ideal position for typing/work. For one thing you’re encouraging rounded shoulders, e.g. see: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/exercise/common-posture-mistakes-and-fixes/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/exercise/common-posture-mistake...
SkyPuncher 8y ago
I strongly, strongly disagree that the layout doesn't matter. I was experiencing pretty bad pain from typing on a qwerty layout. Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand. I switched to Colemak (which follows a similar philosophy as Workman) and my hands have significantly too less pain. I still get some from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the paint. I know you can't prove anything with one word, but the word nice is a great example. On qwerty, "n-i" forces an uncomfortable twist with the pointer and middle finger. "c-e" forces a jump of the home row. On colemak, "n", "i", and "e" are all on the home row with the same hand. "c" is on the opposite hand in the lower row. There's no uncomfortable twisting. You find these types of improvements across nearly all of the intentional layout designs like drovak, colemak, and workman. Regardless of "proper" posture, they do minimize a lot of difficult typing procedures. Look at the stats on this comment alone: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/1mwrX5bH http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/1mwrX5bH
- deno 8y ago
  > Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand. And my point is it doesn’t matter when your wrist is not glued to your desk. You don’t need to contort anything if your hand is free and relaxed over the keys. If something is far away, I just move my entire hand over there. Look, here’s me typing “nice” using two different methods: https://streamable.com/mlys1 https://streamable.com/mlys1 (I’m just typing “hello world” at the end) > I still get some [pain] from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the pain. In the second example you can see my hands are completely relaxed, I’m not “contorting” anything, I could type like that for hours. Zero pain. None. Nada. Nil. Colemak, Dvorak, etc, they’re all optimizing how to do least damage with the horrible typing method that no one ought to use in the first place.
  - SkyPuncher 8y ago
    That's a bad example because you don't follow standard keying methods. In you're nice example, you're using your pointer finger to press the "c" key. Standard recommendations say both "c" and "e" keys should be handled by your middle finger on qwerty. You're also typing incredibly slow where you can physically move your hand to avoid contorting your finger. At faster speeds, which I personally hit frequently when slacking or typing up emails, I can't be moving my hands all over the keyboard.

by deno 8y ago

brennebeck 8y ago

Huh. I had no idea I typed pretty healthily. Thank you. But... references? (It does make sense, though)

deno 8y ago
Practically all ergonomic studies start from the position of compromised wrist placement and measure what angle does least damage. That’s how you end up with split “ergonomic” keyboards. This is the height you need for your monitor to not encourage slouching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S467Ck8uIsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S467Ck8uIsc . You also need to touch type which not everyone can. As a result most office workers have terrible postures. I bet you would run into trouble just trying to find enough people that can both touch type and have good enough posture to do such study. But I would start with piano players.
- melling 8y ago
  I’ve got dozens of stories about people with RSI here: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README.org https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README... There doesn’t seem to be one cause or one solution.
  - deno 8y ago
    You can put everything in that list into 3 categories: 1. Fixing the problem: posture & monitor/keyboard height 2. Masking the problem: anything with the word ergonomic 3. Avoiding the problem: typing less/taking frequent (flow-interrupting) breaks Of course most people with pain want quick solutions, so no. 2 is going to be over-represented. Fixing your posture actually takes work to stretch/compress different muscle groups over a period of time, otherwise you’re back to slouching after 10 minutes.
    - melling 8y ago
      There are some plenty of programmers who have dealt with problems for years: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html I wouldn’t trivialize anything. Happens to designers too. This was on the front of HN a few years ago: http://www.looknohands.me http://www.looknohands.me
      - deno 8y ago
        Acknowledging the fact that most people working with computers have horrible postures is not trivializing anything.
        melling 8y ago
        Many people claim the Mind Body Approach solved their problem: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html Claiming the entire problem is posture might not be the answer. We should definitely be looking more deeply into the problem and solutions. The creator of Tcl/Tk has been dealing with RSI for over 20 years, for example: http://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/wrist.php http://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/wrist.php
        deno 8y ago
        Obviously I can’t prove a negative, but: > This made a substantial difference in my comfort level; it's amazing how tense you are under normal conditions and how much you can relax if you know how. That’s exactly the biggest benefit I got from fixing my posture. Being able to relax. Also fixing my deviated septum, but posture alone can compromise your breathing to that degree as well. > As soon as I would get up out of my chair and do other activities, the symptoms would go away again. Bingo.
Mikhail_Edoshin 8y ago
There's quite a body of knowledge on body mechanics that doesn't seem to get much reflection in scientific publications. The only possible exception is the Alexander technique, and even this one is very much obscure. Not because it's secret or something like that, it's that these things don't seem to be searched for. BTW, healthy writing (according to Palmer) is very similar: you rest your elbow and little finger on the desk and write by floating your whole hand above in a very relaxed way.
- vemv 8y ago
  I wouln't rest my elbow (or forearms) on anything, it's an unnatural pressure. Instead I place the keyboard at the border of the desk, so I can't possibly lean my arms on the desk. Granted, you have to use more force to keep your whole arms lifted for hours, but it's good that you can know when do you need a rest.

wruza 8y ago

I can imagine typing a wordy contract with this body and hand position, but not programming. He doesn’t use ctrl/shift much, and when he does, it seems not like a quick thing. He also will bottom out as hell even on non-horrible keyboard. (Mac kbd is far from horrible when compared to other membranes, btw.) I’m not a homerow-guy even, but try to {foo:(x,y)=>(x[y]+1)} and I bet this method will feel the struggle.

deno 8y ago
I don't understand the problem...? Here's a quick demo of me typing some special characters with my natural typing position: https://streamable.com/tavn6 https://streamable.com/tavn6 For something like $ or # I’ll use my right pinky for shift and the left hand, which I can’t really demo with one hand holding camera. The right side is easily reachable if you don’t glue your wrist—try it. EDIT: Here’a the full thing with spaces: https://streamable.com/h0bpr https://streamable.com/h0bpr
- wruza 8y ago
  Just tried your way and have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it isn’t much different from how I do (bases on erf, kop/jio and sliding around). On the other, side moving is much easier due to no friction; also much ‘slippery’ if not controlled. Probably should give it a week to see how is it to hold a big right angle for a long time. Thanks for sharing!
  - deno 8y ago
    You need a slightly different mental map of your keyboard. I think I use the edges/shifts as a reference (Model F doesn’t have the bumps at J/F at all), but that’s just a guess.

tjoff 8y ago

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

vemv 8y ago
Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature. Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably. Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well. A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired. So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms. I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.
- tjoff 8y ago
  I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards. Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic. I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.
  - vemv 8y ago
    Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day. The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').

eru 8y ago

No, thanks. I'd rather use my Kinesis Advantage than a horrible layout on a horrible flat keyboard.

deno 8y ago
I’m typing this comment on an IBM Model F XT. The video is to show proper typing posture not an endorsement of chiclet style keyboards. But you could even type on this crap and be comfortable, because posture fixes the problem instead of masking it, like that Kinesis.
- eru 8y ago
  Oh, posture is good. But I'd rather have good posture on a keyboard with keys lined in direct columns etc. (Truth be told, my Kinesis Advantage sits on my standing desk at work where I spend most of my screen time and typing. I'm tying on my MacBook's chiclet.)
  - deno 8y ago
    The issue is the tension you create by gluing your wrists and then having to curl your fingers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA On Kinesis you minimize this issue but your hands are still mostly static and never relax.

brandonmenc 8y ago

Agree with you in general - that adjusting your body, and not your keyboard, is the fix - but not necessarily the specifics. The most important fixes imo are: - Neutral angle wrists (elbows flared so that it's a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, i.e. no wrist "yaw") - Monitor at eye-level - Forearms parallel to the ground - Feet planted on the floor afaik slouching takes pressure of the lumbar vertebrae, but neither that nor sitting up straight is uncomfortable for me, and I arbitrarily alternate between the two. Also, arms resting on the desk doesn't bother me. I find it nearly impossible to work on a laptop for any length of time, mostly because of the monitor-at-eye-level requirement. Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.

deno 8y ago
I take no issue with anything on that list. The pressure on lumbar is because of the positioning of your pelvis[1]. > Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2. I have my monitor on top of an entire hifi set and an old VHS player. But yeah an arm seems more sensible ;) [1] https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg
- brandonmenc 8y ago
  Agree - that image looks painful, but I'd term that a "hunch" more than a "slouch" (not sure if ergonomics makes a distinction between the two.) My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable.
  - deno 8y ago
    > My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable. Reclining is fine for relaxing but it’s not an ideal position for typing/work. For one thing you’re encouraging rounded shoulders, e.g. see: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/exercise/common-posture-mistakes-and-fixes/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/exercise/common-posture-mistake...

SkyPuncher 8y ago

I strongly, strongly disagree that the layout doesn't matter. I was experiencing pretty bad pain from typing on a qwerty layout. Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand. I switched to Colemak (which follows a similar philosophy as Workman) and my hands have significantly too less pain. I still get some from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the paint. I know you can't prove anything with one word, but the word nice is a great example. On qwerty, "n-i" forces an uncomfortable twist with the pointer and middle finger. "c-e" forces a jump of the home row. On colemak, "n", "i", and "e" are all on the home row with the same hand. "c" is on the opposite hand in the lower row. There's no uncomfortable twisting. You find these types of improvements across nearly all of the intentional layout designs like drovak, colemak, and workman. Regardless of "proper" posture, they do minimize a lot of difficult typing procedures. Look at the stats on this comment alone: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/1mwrX5bH http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/1mwrX5bH

deno 8y ago
> Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand. And my point is it doesn’t matter when your wrist is not glued to your desk. You don’t need to contort anything if your hand is free and relaxed over the keys. If something is far away, I just move my entire hand over there. Look, here’s me typing “nice” using two different methods: https://streamable.com/mlys1 https://streamable.com/mlys1 (I’m just typing “hello world” at the end) > I still get some [pain] from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the pain. In the second example you can see my hands are completely relaxed, I’m not “contorting” anything, I could type like that for hours. Zero pain. None. Nada. Nil. Colemak, Dvorak, etc, they’re all optimizing how to do least damage with the horrible typing method that no one ought to use in the first place.
- SkyPuncher 8y ago
  That's a bad example because you don't follow standard keying methods. In you're nice example, you're using your pointer finger to press the "c" key. Standard recommendations say both "c" and "e" keys should be handled by your middle finger on qwerty. You're also typing incredibly slow where you can physically move your hand to avoid contorting your finger. At faster speeds, which I personally hit frequently when slacking or typing up emails, I can't be moving my hands all over the keyboard.