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Thanks that is extremely interesting info. I have noticed when talking to Americans and reading about American manufacturing, I get the sense that workers are n

Thanks that is extremely interesting info. I have noticed when talking to Americans and reading about American manufacturing, I get the sense that workers are not expected to be particularly skilled and that production is designed with that in mind. I am from a Nordic country and we tend to follow the German style system of vocational training where you go in an apprenticeship and get a certificate. I have tried to understand the American model but it seems less formalized to me. It seems to be more company specific. You get trained to do a particular job at a particular company.

stephengillie 8y ago
The American system is to have no overarching system. Our empire is too large - we have to accept people from numerous systems and varying levels of ability. Alaskans and Alabamans have to work alongside Germans and (both kinds of) Georgians. So the company trains you to do what they need.
- iguy 8y ago
  Not an expert but it does sound like American car-making for instance is lower-skill than German, today. But I'm not sure about manufacturing as a whole. The things America is competitive in exporting tend to be pretty high-tech. I found an article I remember about a jet engine factory (to keep this on topic!) which sounds very far from hiring the bottom of the barrel: https://www.fastcompany.com/37815/engines-democracy https://www.fastcompany.com/37815/engines-democracy
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    There's enough people looking for work that no productive manufacturing enterprise is hiring the bottom of the barrel.
    - eru 8y ago
      Unemployment in the US is down to 3.9% at the moment.
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        Now consider all the people that work jobs that pay less than "productive manufacturing" and are looking for better.
        eru 8y ago
        Further discussion would need to drill down exactly what we mean by 'productive manufacturing' and 'bottom of the barrel'. I don't think we are even disagreeing.
        maxerickson 8y ago
        I interpreted your post as saying we are at full employment.
        eru 8y ago
        Depends on your definition of full employment. By some accepted definition, the US is at full employment. But other definitions are possible and in use. (Even Wikipedia mentions a few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment)
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Incidentally, I think this is why so many people think American manufacturing is dead. Our stores are filled with cheap imported crap and it’s easy to think that’s all there is. But you don’t find a new 787 in the local shops, so it’s easy to forget about.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - linksnapzz 8y ago
    "Machine that Changed the World"by Womack discussed this, in both the PBS series and the book. The comparison they used was the Toyota line at Tahara for the Lexus LS, and the Mercedes S-class line at Sindelfingen. (American car-making, nowadays, would hew closer to the Japanese example...) The gist was that while the Lexus workers were expected to be hugely attentive and detail-oriented, they were nowhere near as mechanically skilled/trained as the Germans. But, they didn't have to be; the car they were making, and the process by which it was made was designed around workers of that skill level. The Mercedes, OTOH-(if you have ever taken apart a W140 S-class, this ain't gonna surprise you...) clearly needed a team of people to carry out the same assembly tasks due to ease & simplicity of manufacture not being a design consideration. Womack goes on to talk about a special "hand-assembly" line at Volvo, supposedly to ensure that certain custom-ordered cars get almost individual attention from a small team of experienced techs, so as to improve quality. It doesn't end up working out that way; throwing more, better-trained, workers at the problem increases costs far faster than refining the design & feeding that back into the manufacturing process. It's a fascinating book, and I look at it every time I hear how Tesla is running their factory....
maxerickson 8y ago
It's increasing expected that entry level skilled jobs need an associates degree, which is 2 years at a small college. A random example: https://www.mesacc.edu/programs/manufacturing https://www.mesacc.edu/programs/manufacturing (The only reason that stuff couldn't be available in most high school programs is that we are a bunch of dicks over here)
- walshemj 8y ago
  Those are presumably higher level apprenticeships ie the ones you did after a classical craft one. Having said that today the pool of 15 /16 year olds (usualy working class kids ) good enough to become apprentices now do full degree courses.
wil421 8y ago
For what Americans consider trade schools, like welding, plumbing and a whole bunch of others, there are apprenticeship style training. It can even depend on the state. Line workers in a car manufacturing plant are very low skilled and are jobs that anyone in theory could do. Most manufacturers in the US around the South (where I live) are in very rural areas. It would be hard to find a huge population of skilled workers to fill a plant. BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia have plants near me. The BMW plant is the largest in the world. I believe Toyota and Mazda are opening up new sites as well.

stephengillie 8y ago

The American system is to have no overarching system. Our empire is too large - we have to accept people from numerous systems and varying levels of ability. Alaskans and Alabamans have to work alongside Germans and (both kinds of) Georgians. So the company trains you to do what they need.

iguy 8y ago
Not an expert but it does sound like American car-making for instance is lower-skill than German, today. But I'm not sure about manufacturing as a whole. The things America is competitive in exporting tend to be pretty high-tech. I found an article I remember about a jet engine factory (to keep this on topic!) which sounds very far from hiring the bottom of the barrel: https://www.fastcompany.com/37815/engines-democracy https://www.fastcompany.com/37815/engines-democracy
- maxerickson 8y ago
  There's enough people looking for work that no productive manufacturing enterprise is hiring the bottom of the barrel.
  - eru 8y ago
    Unemployment in the US is down to 3.9% at the moment.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      Now consider all the people that work jobs that pay less than "productive manufacturing" and are looking for better.
      - eru 8y ago
        Further discussion would need to drill down exactly what we mean by 'productive manufacturing' and 'bottom of the barrel'. I don't think we are even disagreeing.
        maxerickson 8y ago
        I interpreted your post as saying we are at full employment.
        eru 8y ago
        Depends on your definition of full employment. By some accepted definition, the US is at full employment. But other definitions are possible and in use. (Even Wikipedia mentions a few. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment)
- mikeash 8y ago
  Incidentally, I think this is why so many people think American manufacturing is dead. Our stores are filled with cheap imported crap and it’s easy to think that’s all there is. But you don’t find a new 787 in the local shops, so it’s easy to forget about.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- linksnapzz 8y ago
  "Machine that Changed the World"by Womack discussed this, in both the PBS series and the book. The comparison they used was the Toyota line at Tahara for the Lexus LS, and the Mercedes S-class line at Sindelfingen. (American car-making, nowadays, would hew closer to the Japanese example...) The gist was that while the Lexus workers were expected to be hugely attentive and detail-oriented, they were nowhere near as mechanically skilled/trained as the Germans. But, they didn't have to be; the car they were making, and the process by which it was made was designed around workers of that skill level. The Mercedes, OTOH-(if you have ever taken apart a W140 S-class, this ain't gonna surprise you...) clearly needed a team of people to carry out the same assembly tasks due to ease & simplicity of manufacture not being a design consideration. Womack goes on to talk about a special "hand-assembly" line at Volvo, supposedly to ensure that certain custom-ordered cars get almost individual attention from a small team of experienced techs, so as to improve quality. It doesn't end up working out that way; throwing more, better-trained, workers at the problem increases costs far faster than refining the design & feeding that back into the manufacturing process. It's a fascinating book, and I look at it every time I hear how Tesla is running their factory....

maxerickson 8y ago

It's increasing expected that entry level skilled jobs need an associates degree, which is 2 years at a small college. A random example: https://www.mesacc.edu/programs/manufacturing https://www.mesacc.edu/programs/manufacturing (The only reason that stuff couldn't be available in most high school programs is that we are a bunch of dicks over here)

walshemj 8y ago
Those are presumably higher level apprenticeships ie the ones you did after a classical craft one. Having said that today the pool of 15 /16 year olds (usualy working class kids ) good enough to become apprentices now do full degree courses.

wil421 8y ago

For what Americans consider trade schools, like welding, plumbing and a whole bunch of others, there are apprenticeship style training. It can even depend on the state. Line workers in a car manufacturing plant are very low skilled and are jobs that anyone in theory could do. Most manufacturers in the US around the South (where I live) are in very rural areas. It would be hard to find a huge population of skilled workers to fill a plant. BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, and Kia have plants near me. The BMW plant is the largest in the world. I believe Toyota and Mazda are opening up new sites as well.